How To Prove The Existence of God

Mark Smith   (May 2002)

Where's the beef ???

"Blessed are the gullible,

for they are my future sheep." -JC

 

Unlike Christians, I don't count being gullible as something to aspire to. They do. They’ve made it a virture, called faith. Therefore they go about trying to convert Atheists the wrong way. Don't TELL Atheists about miracles- the best evidence FOR a miracle IS a miracle! And don't TELL them all sorts of convoluted contorted distorted philosophical gobbledygook that you CLAIM "proves" the existence of your gods. Hell, by the time someone untangles one of those verbal pretzels, you could prove ANYTHING.  The BEST evidence FOR a god IS the god! You got a god? Don't hide him- bring him on! In other words,
Where's The Beef???

Elijah  -vs-  The Prophets of Baal

From the Old Testament, 1st Kings 18

 

According to the Hebrew scriptures, Biblegod of the past (unlike our current Biblegod) was not afraid to prove his existence to the skeptical. Biblegod had Elijah conduct an experiment.  According to the Hebrew Bible in1st Kings 18, Elijah conducted this experiment in front of hundreds of skeptical onlookers.  Did Elijah ARGUE Biblegod into existence? No! Did Elijah PHILOSOPHIZE Biblegod into existence? No! Did Elijah offer "Five Good Reasons" to believe Biblegod existed? HELL NO!!! Instead, Elijah, in front of hundreds of skeptical onlookers, called down "fire from heaven" which settled the debate. According to the Hebrew scriptures:

 

1st Kings 18

  "I am not the troublemaker," Elijah answered. "You are--you and your father.  You are disobeying the LORD's commands and worshiping the idols of Baal.  Now order all the people of Israel to meet me at Mount Carmel.  Bring along the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of the goddess Asherah who are supported by Queen Jezebel."

  So Ahab summoned all the Israelites and the prophets of Baal to meet at Mount Carmel.  Elijah went up to the people and said, "How much longer will it take you to make up your minds?  If the LORD is God, worship him; but if Baal is God, worship him!"   But the people didn't say a word.  

  Then Elijah said, "I am the only prophet of the LORD still left, but there are 450 prophets of Baal.  Bring two bulls; let the prophets of Baal take one, kill it, cut it in pieces, and put it on the wood--but don't light the fire.  I will do the same with the other bull.  Then let the prophets of Baal pray to their god, and I will pray to the LORD, and the god who answers by sending fire--he is God."

  The people shouted their approval.

  Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal. "Since there are so many of you, you take a bull and prepare it first. Pray to your god, but don't set fire to the wood."

  They took the bull that was brought to them, prepared it, and prayed to Baal until noon.  They shouted. "Answer us. Baal!" and kept dancing around the altar they had built.  But no answer came.

  At noon Elijah started making fun of them; "Pray louder!  Hi is a god! Maybe he is day-dreaming or gone to the bathroom, or perhaps he's gone off on a trip!  Or maybe he's sleeping, and you've got to wake him up!"  So the prophets prayed louder and cut themselves with knives and daggers, according to their ritual, until blood flowed.  They kept on ranting and raving until the middle of the afternoon;  but no answer came, not sound was heard.

  Then Elijah said to the people, "Come closer to me." and they all gathered around him.  He set about repairing the altar of the LORD which had been torn down.  He took twelve stones, one for each of the twelve tribes named for the sons of Jacob, the man to whom the LORD had given the name Israel  With these stones he rebuilt the altar for the worship of the LORD.  He dug a trench around it, large enough to hold about four gallons of water.  Then he placed the wood on the altar, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood.  He said, "Fill four jars with water and pour it on the offering and the wood."  They did so, and the said, "Do it again"--and they did.  "Do it once more," he said--and they did.  The water ran down around the altar and filled the trench.

  At the hour of the afternoon sacrifice the prophet Elijah approached the altar and prayed, "O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove now that you are the God of Israel. and that I am your servant and have done all this at your command.  Answer me, LORD, answer me, so that this people will know that you, the LORD, are God and that you are bringing them back to yourself."

  The LORD sent fire down, and it burned up the sacrifice, the wood, and the stones, scorched the earth and dried up the water in the trench.

  When the people saw this, they threw themselves on the ground and exclaimed.  "The LORD is God; the LORD alone is God!"

 

Elijah ordered, "Seize the prophets of Baal; don't let any of them get away!" The people seized them all, and Elijah led them down to Kishon Brook and killed them.  (1st Kings 18)

Now THAT'S the way to settle the disagreement, and I guess it also lays to rest the Christian excuse of "not tempting the Lord" when it comes to making Biblegod prove himself. IF it was WRONG to demand cold hard PROOF of Biblegod's existence, the "fire from heaven" would have hit Elijah, NOT the wood! No more hot air arguments, no more geek-speak. Just "show me the money!", no more “Does God Exist” debates by the dozens, year after year. Just "Lay your cards on the table- I call your bluff." Biblegod (according to the Bible) wasn't shy about PROVING his existence back then, and the Bible says that Biblegod changes not- he is the same yesterday, today, forever. 

 

I the LORD do not change (Malachi 3:6 RSV)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8 RSV)

 

THEREFORE, if it was a good and acceptable thing for him to prove his existence back then with "fire from heaven" it would be good for him nowadays as well, especially seeing how he's competing against a lot more gods than just Baal. The FACT that he DOESN'T offer up hard evidence nowadays such as fire from heaven is evidence itself that Biblegod never existed- the whole fire story of Elijah was just that: a story, just a bluff Christians use to scare people into the Kingdom. "Ohhhhh, our god used to kick ass, you'd better watch out, Mr. Atheist!!!" Oh yeah, we're hiding under our beds in fear, and "used to" are the operative words here- your whole religion is nothing but a bunch of "used to's".

 

IF tis same experiment were done today, both would be  no-shows. Both gods would be mocked (and rightfully so) for having gone to the toilet or on vacation. And both gods would have been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are no more real than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

You Christians are like a man bluffing in a poker game. You CLAIM to have a winning hand. You make FACES as if you have a winning hand. But every time we Atheists CALL your bluff, you never SHOW your hand! "Oh boy! If only I could show you this hand- whoa! THEN you'd really believe God exists! This hand- wow! The cards I got-  the Father, Son, AND Holy Ghost, that trumps ANYTHING you might hold in YOUR hand." Yes, it sure does SOUND impressive, but damn it- just show the damn hand!!! We have been calling your bluff for SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS now, and all you respond with is NOT laying your cards on the table, but just more hot-air excuses of WHY you can't show us your gods: "I can't SHOW you my winning hand, but I have FIVE good reasons WHY you should BELIEVE I have the winning hand, so therefore, hand over the kitty to me!" All I can say to that is FIVE GOOD REASONS MY ASS! Show me the damn cards OR keep your damn hands off the money in the middle!

 

Where's The Beef???

 

Let's get right down to it: where's the damn beef??? Christians are good at making claims, but not so good at backing them up. You Christians want a chance to prove your case beyond dispute? Here's your chance. In the words of President Dumbass, "Bring it on!".

 

 

My Challenge to Christians

In front of hundreds of Atheists and Christians, I challenge ANY modern prophet or preacher to reproduce what Elijah did, and I am willing to bet my life that he can't: I offer MYSELF as the target of Biblegod's "fire from heaven".  IF Biblegod zaps me with fire and turns me into a crispy critter, THEN all the Atheists, per pre-signed agreements, will convert on the spot to Christians and burn their Atheistic books. 

However, IF after one hour of prayers and preaching Biblegod has NOT zapped me with fire, all of the Christians present will have to publicly BURN ALL THEIR BIBLES, denounce God and Jesus (verbally and in writing),  AND to prove their sincerity, they will have to step up to the mic and "blaspheme the Holy Spirit" since they no longer believe it exists anyway. 

I happen to KNOW that I am right, and I am willing to bet my life on it. Are there any Christians out there willing to bet THEIR life? How about just their faith in a make-believe god? We'll see.

 

Total Number of Christians
to Take Up the Above Challenge
 So Far:

 

ZERO

 

  (gee, I wonder if that surprises anybody???)

 

  Is It Somehow WRONG to

Demand Evidence

Before You Make 

THE-MOST-IMPORTANT 

Decision of Your LIFE??? A Decision that May COST You Your Life Later On?

Nobody Knows Cause the Bible is so Damn Flip-Floppy!

Yes/No     Maybe/Maybe Not   Who Can Know?

Flip Flopper:     Should people demand proof, demand evidence? The Bible is unclear, for what we have is yet another case of the Bible contradicting itself. The Bible says to ask for credentials; the Bible says to NOT ask for credentials. The Bible says to put prophets to the test; the Bible says NOT to put prophets to the test. The Bible says only an evil generation will ask for credentials; then the same Bible says to ask for credentials. The Bible says to test all claims; the Bible says to test nothing- just take the word of total strangers.

Once again, a person can quote the Bible to support TWO contradictory positions. What's a Fundy to do? I guess he's on his own- he'll have to use his own mind (gasp!!!), as the Bible can't make up its mind. But if it were up to me, I think it'd be wiser not to be a gullible sucker, to not believe every con man, bum and religious kook that comes up to me in person or in print with some cockamamie story.

 

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Biblegod: An undetectable being who demands you detect him.

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Fact is, IF your Biblegod really existed, his existence would not be a matter of dispute. It would be as real as the sun above or the pavement below. There is no justification to be found within your Bible for the celestial game of peek-a-boo, hide-n-seek or whatever the hell game your Biblegod is playing on humanity. What has your great and powerful Biblegod (if he really existed) got to fear from us puny mortals that motivates him to hide his very existence from us? What is he scared of? Is he scared we'll beat him up? A REAL god would have no reason to hide his existence, but a make-believe god, made up by a group of religious fanatics, would have every reason in the world to "hide", for as soon as its followers are forced to reveal their god, they themselves will be revealed as frauds, for there never was a god to reveal in the first place.

 

Do we humans seek to hide our existence from the ants on the sidewalk? Do we shout down commands to them, inspire a few of them to preach to their fellow ants that unless they believe we exist they'll burn in a hell forever? And if we did so, why on earth would we then run to the nearest tree to hide our existence from them when we just made their salvation contingent upon their believing our existence??? Does this make any sense at all?

 

And where exactly in your Bible does it say that Biblegod must hide from humanity like a scared old lady from teenagers??? Where does it say that he must be invisible to all of our scientific instruments, and all of our human senses? Was he just a disembodied voice floating in the breeze in the "Garden of Eden" that Adam thought he heard, but wasn't sure? The fact is, the mighty "god" of the Christians does a damn good job of imitating a god that doesn't exist at all. Hmmmm.... maybe that should tell you Christians something, but then again, that would assume you've shut up long enough to actually listen, which is highly unlikely.

 

In your mythical “Garden of Eden” story the author has Adam and Eve never questioning the existence of Biblegod- they never had a good reason to- he was right there in their face. What they questioned was not that Biblegod existed or had said anything, but rather to obey, or disobey, what they had clearly heard Biblegod tell them face to face.

 

This should be the same choice facing modern Atheists. The existence of your god would never even have become an issue if he really existed. A real God would not allow it, for how can we Atheists be held accountable to obey orders from a being whose very existence we see no evidence for? That would be a gross injustice on a cosmic scale. And please, don't insult our intelligence by claiming that we Atheists DO see the evidence, but we're just stubborn / dishonest / stupid  / illogical / unreasonable / blinded / and all the other slanders and libels you Christians use to insult us with. Believe it or not, we honestly and really don't see any evidence for your Biblegod, and trust me: we've looked, more so than even most of you Christians.  

 

Let’s say a soldier of the Columbian army has received an order. Trouble is, the order was garbled during transcription, the courier who delivered the order can’t be trusted, and nobody in the entire army has ever seen, heard, or met the Major in Bogotá who issued the order.

 

And let’s say the order is sending him on a very dangerous mission. He could likely end up getting killed. He thus feels very uneasy entrusting his very life to such a flimsy document, especially since no one’s sure the person who dictated the order even exists. He’s also doubtful of the man who delivered the order, knowing that in the past this man has made up orders and signed the Major’s name to them. And to top it off, he’s not even sure of exactly what the order is telling him to do, and no one seems able to help. Everyone he shows the order to seems to come up with different and contradictory interpretations. But one thing they all agree on is if he doesn’t follow the order exactly (whatever it may turn out to really say) he’s in big trouble.

 

What’s this soldier to do? Deep down in his heart he doesn’t believe the order is legitimate. Yet his friends are telling him he must believe in the order, and obey it, or possibly face the firing squad. It appears to be a no-win situation.

 

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Christians claim to have marching orders for us from “God” himself, yet we Atheists don’t even believe their “God” exists. None of us Atheists have ever seen, smelled, touched, tasted, or heard him. None of our scientific sensors have ever detected him, including radar, which at least picks up Santa every December 24th. We’ve been to the depths of the oceans and the glorious heights of space, and still no sign of “God”.  How can Atheists possible follow orders from somebody we don’t even believe exists?

 

Christianity claims to be the “courier” through whom “God” entrusted the delivery of his documents to humanity, yet knowledgeable Atheists know better than to trust a Christian “mailman”. Christians have been well documented1 in the past for doctoring the documents they claim are from “God”- changing some, even inventing others out of thin air. Knowing this fact of history, how can Atheists possibly trust orders delivered to us through such an untrustworthy courier?

 

Christians claim we can look in their Bible to read these marching orders, yet Christians can’t even agree among themselves as to what these marching orders actually order. Confusion has reigned supreme ever since these documents were written, resulting in massive and hate-filled splits in Christendom: Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and well over a thousand more. The reason for all this confusion? The Bible itself is confused 2. So how can Atheists possibly obey “marching orders” when the orders are so confused that even Christians can’t agree on what say?

 

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Christians, this is NOT how it’s supposed to be! Reality, and your world-view, don’t seem to be agreeing with each other. But for the sake of argument, I’ll pretend the Garden of Eden story actually happened. And in that garden, Adam and Eve had no doubts about the existence of Biblegod. The authenticity of Biblegod and what Biblegod had ordered were never in question; to obey or not obey was. Atheists, by definition, could not exist in the Garden of Eden.

 

But they do exist nowadays, and we Atheists are being asked by Christians to somehow “believe” that a god (which we don’t believe exists) has issued orders (which we don’t believe are legible) that we must obey (to avoid a hell we don’t believe exists). Do you see the problem here? Let me elaborate.

 

Let’s say a Christian answered his doorbell and was handed a utility bill for $10,000 from a man who claimed to represent some power company the Christian didn’t even know existed. What are the chances that the Christian would open up his checkbook and cut the guy a check? Does “snowball’s chance in hell” sound familiar? Yet this is the same situation Christians have placed us Atheists into when they knock on our door and shove their religion in our face.

 

Most people who have a coffee cup sitting on the table in front of them believe they have a coffee cup sitting on the table in front of them. They don’t believe they have a talking miniature elephant on the table. They believe it’s a coffee cup based upon a preponderance of evidence that it’s a coffee cup. In fact, the evidence is so strong it’s a coffee cup that they would be considered insane to believe it was anything else, such as a live talking miniature elephant. Looking at the coffee cup, they can’t will themselves to believe it is anything other than what the facts show: a coffee cup, no matter how hard they try. And they would be lying to you if they told you they believed it was anything other than a coffee cup.

 

Now, they could pretend it was a talking miniature elephant. In fact, the more childish and mentally immature they are, the better at pretending they would be. They could even get their friends to pretend along with them. Liberal amounts of alcohol could help facilitate this game of pretend. But even while pretending it was what it’s not, deep down in their inebriated hearts they would still know it was only a coffee cup.

 

Likewise with us Atheists. We could pretend there is a god, we could even pretend along with you. But deep down inside, we can only really believe what we believe, and we believe based upon the evidence we see, and we see no evidence for your gods- and in reality, neither do you, or you would have used that evidence long ago to destroy Atheism.  So when you Christians come up to us and want us to “believe” your Biblegod exists “and has a wonderful plan for your life” what are we to do? We can only believe what the evidence leads us to believe, and no amount of threats like “turn or burn” can change that. Do you Christians want us to lie to you that we believe in your gods when we see no evidence, or would you rather have us tell the truth and say we don’t believe in your gods? We don’t believe in your gods.

 

So, if you Christians want us Atheists to “believe” all you need to do is present believable evidence. You don’t need to argue with us- show us the beef! You don’t need to pray for us- show us the beef! And you don’t need to slip into philosophical geek-speak. You need to show us. But so far you have failed, and us Atheists are constant reminders to you of that failure on your part. If the students aren’t learning, look at the teachers, not the students.  Show us, don’t just tell us, for no amount of mere verbiage is going to convince a man that the coffee cup in front of him is actually a talking miniature elephant.

 

 

 

 

 

Where's The Beef???

 

You want us to believe? Come up with solid evidence. You'll settle for us pretending? Sorry, we’re not children anymore.

 

 

 

Imagine

Imagine There's No Heaven. It's Easy if You Try. 
No Hell Below Us, Above Us Only Sky...

*The Apostle Paul:       "If (the dead can't come back to life), that means that Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised from death, then we have nothing to preach and you have nothing to believe. More than that, we are shown to be LYING about God. ...For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is a delusion and you are still lost in your sins. It would also mean that the believers in Christ who have died are lost. If our hope in Christ is good for this life only and no more, then
  we (Christians) deserve more pity than anyone else in all the world."  

...Imagine All The People, Living For Today. 
You May Say I'm a Dreamer,
But I'm Not The Only One. I Hope Someday You'll Join Us,
And The World Will Live as One. -John Lennon, Atheist Martyr

*(New Testament, 1st Corinthians 15: 13-19 TEV)

 

 

C.R.A.P.

It occurred to me the other day, regarding the parents of Jesus, that even if Mary herself was here in the flesh, as pregnant as can be, there is no way at all that she could ever prove that some divine Father, Son, or even a "horny ghost" had gotten her pregnant, especially as the very existence of ghosts has never been proven, so how could Mary prove a particular one had gotten her pregnant? She couldn't. And neither can anyone else, then or now. It is a doctrine that has zero (Ø) evidence to back it up. For all it's worth, Mary might as well have said she'd gotten knocked up by a pack of horny midget Martian penguins. Both claims have exactly the same amount of evidence backing them up: zero.

Beliefs that exist with absolutely zero evidence to back them up, such as Adam eating a "forbidden fruit", Jonah getting swallowed by a fish, or a ghost knocking up Mary, I'd like to categorize with a new term: C.R.A.P. which stands for}

Christian Rationalization, Assumption or Postulate.

Don't go swallowing some CRAP a Christian tries to feed you. Also, it's not worth arguing over CRAP. So anytime a Christian throws some CRAP at you, don't waste your time arguing; just call it what it is- CRAP- and walk away.

 

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Alvin Plantinga is one of the most prominent Christian philosophers in the world, someone to whom even William Lane Craig looks up to. Alvin has taken a different tact to this whole question of proving BibleGod exists by basically saying it doesn’t matter. From the New York Times (online 12/14/2011) we read:

Mr. Plantinga readily admits that he has no proof that God exists. But he also thinks that doesn’t matter. Belief in God, he argues, is what philosophers call a basic belief: It is no more in need of proof than the belief that the past exists, or that other people have minds, or that one plus one equals two.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/books/alvin-plantingas-new-book-on-god-and-science.html   

My translation? He is like a German general the day after WWII ended, saying “you might say we lost, but we’ll just say we won and leave it at that”. So for those Christians who think it’s alright to give up on evidence and rationality and reality when it comes to proving the existence of BibleGod, this can be your motto:  “Let’s don’t  prove it & say we did”.

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1) The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, by Dr. Bart D. Ehrman, Oxford University Press, 1996 paperback, ISBN # 0195102797   ***  Also see my paper elsewhere on this web site:  How Firm A Foundation- Of Forgeries      2) See my essay in this website:  God Is Not The Author.