JCnot4me.com
“Am I therefore become your enemy for telling you the truth?”
The Apostle Paul Galatians 4:16
Part 2} Responses to
Jesus: False Prophet
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Mark Proeger 7-
Subject: furthermore
Date: 7/31/2005 8:11:45 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)
bro...you are making this way too easy for me.....
from your "essay" where you claim to debunk Christianity:
? The stars would fall to earth
? The Great Tribulation & Rapture
? Judgment Day for all mankind
? The Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Listen to what the liar himself said around 33 AD to his fellow Jews gathered around him:
“Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.” (Matthew 24:34 TEV)
“For the Son of Man [i.e. Jesus] is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each one according to his deeds. I assure you [i.e. swear to you] that there are some here who will not die until they have seen the Son of Man [Jesus] come as King.” (Matthew 16: 27, 28 TEV)
Jesus did not return within their lifetime as promised, nor did Judgment Day occur. Therefore, these false prophecies by Jesus make Jesus a false prophet, just as certainly as committing a murder makes one a murderer. But just because Jesus set the "goal posts" of his return as being within the First Century hasn't stopped ancient or modern Christians from fixing the problem by moving the date, the "goal posts", always ahead-
................................................................................................
if you read the context of this passage it is clear that Jesus has just described MANY things that will happen before he comes. he ends the passage by saying that the generation that sees these thngs happen will not pass away before all these things have come to pass......you just misread the verse to fit your argument (which isn't very good mark)......
Mark Smith here} Excuse me, but that's not what the verse says. Matthew 24:34 says that those people who were alive and in the flesh listening to Jesus in the flesh speaking in 33 AD would experience the Second Coming before they died off. (see my: Matthew 24:34 What The Scholars Say
http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second%20Coming%20stuff/Mt%2024-
i don't know what version the "TEV" is but any other version will suffice:
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
notice that we have not seen these things happen as it says in verse 33....in other words, while you may not believe in God...your argument from this passage isn't helping you any in your pursuit of pure atheism....
Mark Smith here} If you don't know that the TEV version is-
Also, the reason WE have not seen these things in verse 33 happen is because 1) The prophecy was FALSE. NOBODY has seen all "these things" mentioned in the 24th chapter of Matthew happen. 2) The prophecies had an expiration date of one generation from 33 AD, which would put it well within the first century. Therefore, YOU living 2,000 years later weren't ever supposed to see these things anyway!
Please, go learn your own Bible before coming at me again.
mark
Mark Proeger 8-
mark,
you are purposely choosing a crappy translation and then building a straw man argument in order to make your case. this lacks integrity, this lacks intellectual honesty and i would hope this is below you.
the verse says that the generation that sees these things happening will not pass away until they have all come to pass. it doesn't say, as the TEV claims, that the generation that is was alive wouldn't all die....as you claim.
come on, surely you have better arguments than this right?
mark
Mark Smith here} Well, I don't know how else to make you happy-
And besides, your once again just saying something without one iota of evidence to back it up (aren't there ANY thinking xtians in the world anymore!!!) doesn't make anything true. This is like a court of law-
Mark Proeger 8-
I am assuming you are serious....which is sort of funny. it seems to me you could actually build much stronger arguments by steering clear of this one. this one, quite simply....is not good.
i would ask you to look at the context. you are working hard to define generation (which is easy to define), but all you have to do is look at the context. putting the verse in 52 versions, while impressive in the work you put forth to get that accomplished, doesn't strengthen you argument in the slightest.
Mark Smith here} Well, at least you went to look at my essay finally. Too bad you still don't understand the idea of e-
The FACT that OVER 50 translations back up my conclusions?
The FACT that 5 Greek lexicons back up my conclusions?
The FACT that 25 Bible dictionaries back up my conclusions?
The fact that six Six Bible Encyclopedias back up my conclusions?
The FACT that 16 Bible commentaries back up my conclusions?
The FACT that 9 Christian scholars and authors back up my conclusions?
None of this massive amount of evidence even makes a dent in your thick skull? Oh, I forgot-
context:
29"But immediately after the (AI)tribulation of those days (AJ)THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND (AK)THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then (AL)the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see (AM)the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31"And (AN)He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Parable of the Fig Tree
32"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35"(AT)Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
he says that "when you see all these things" then he says "this generation" which generation? the generation that "sees all these things.
Mark Smith here} You are soooo blind, I am wasting my time with you. But to show off my patience to everyone else, I will explain the obvious, even though it will go completely over your head and you'll sulk away doing that weird mental George Bush chuckle thinking that you "won" the argument. Here goes...
Taking the very sentence you are blind to:
when you (YOU who? YOU the APOSTLES to whom he's talking) see all these things" then he says "this generation" which generation? the generation that "sees all these things (which also happens to the the APOSTLES to whom he just said WOULD see ALL THESE THINGS, i.e. "when YOU see all these things".)
if Christianity falls for you on this poor argument sobeit...but don't pretend to have really studied the issue. you are loved by the creator of the universe....whether or not you choose to reject him is up to you.
yours,
mark lynn proeger
Mark Proeger 8-
Subject: RE: furthermore
Date: 8/13/2005 11:53:54 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
mark,
the claims you are making are not substantiated by your "evidence." much to the contrary, you are reading the text a particular way so that no matter what the translations say, you read them the way you want to read them.
Mark Smith here} May I paraphrase you? Thanks. "Damn the evidence, full speed ahead!!!" You want to ignore the translations in order to maintain your current (but wrong) beliefs. I don't think that is wise.
the context is fairly clear. Jesus describes CRAZY things that will begin to happen before he returns (most of which have not happened at all). he then says that when you (pl) see these things happening then you know the end is near. clearly Jesus knew that what he was saying was not JUST to the apostles.
Mark Smith here} Oh, and you know this for a fact? You traveled back in time, shrunk yourself down, crawled inside his head and found out what he was REALLY thinking, eh? I must bow to you, for all I've got are his words to go by. What he was thinking about while he said those words, I have no clue. He might have been hungry while preaching and thinking about lunch for all I know. I don't know his thoughts, but I, and the rest of the world, know his words, and his words are more than plain. I don't need to repeat them here.
he was speaking to all of his followers to come as well.
Mark Smith here} I went over this with you in your last email (see above). You obviously didn't pay attention then, I don't see why now would be any different. The grammer, the context, the entire chapter, point to a first century due date. Even the behavior of the early Christians give evidence as to how these people IN THE FRONT ROW interpreted what Jesus said. These people heard Jesus in the flesh, and they heard a LOT more obviously than what was just written down. And WHEN did the first century church expect Jesus back? Within their lifetime. WHERE did they EVER get an idea like THAT? Straight from the horses mouth. YOU were not there. THEY were. And they lived as if there were no tomorrow.
They sold all their goods and gave their money away. Why? Because Jesus was coming back maybe in a few months-
They gave up getting married. Why? Because Jesus is coming back so soon they wouldn't even finish the honeymoon.
within this context he says that "this" generation, which generation? the generation that sees all of these things happening" will not pass away until all of this has come to pass. to date, that generation has not existed (unless we are that generation, but this seems unlikely looking back at history and trying to extrapolate forward).
Mark Smith here} The idiocy of that interpretation, again, I have already dealt with in a previous email to you, visible above. Maybe you should learn how to READ and not just TYPE. I once heard a preacher say, you know, the good Lord gave us TWO ears and only ONE mouth-
mark, i can tell you have integrity, i am confused as to why you are not admitting that there is a reasonable way to read this passage other than the wooden way which you have chosent to read it. by the way, for every one commentator you have put forth who agrees with you, i could parade 2 or 3 who disagree with you, so that by itself can not be our reason for believing something. i would say, that unless there is NO other way to read that passage, other than how you are reading it, we need to consider that your interpretation might be wrong.
mark
Morella 9-
Subject: Matt 24:34 Morella says 'Hi'
Date: 9/12/2005 1:26:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Hello Mark. You have a fun web site here, even so, if it were up to me, you and that Rev Merritt would both be sitting on the naughty step. Oh, and say 'Hi' to the Rev. for me. I'm not a scholar or anything, actually I'm one of those flakey artists.... I would like to respond to 'Jesus the False Prophet'.
Being Post-
Like the majority of Evangelicals, you understand 'all these things' to include the Great Tribulation, the stars falling, the sun darkened, the 2nd coming, the end of the world and the Judgment. If this is the case, then Matt 24:33 would read something like this: "So you also, when you see all these things[The 2nd Coming/End of the World] know that it[The 2nd Coming/End of the World] is near[close but not yet here]. Verse 34 wouldn't make sense either, "...this generation will by no means pass away[die] until all these things[getting killed in the tribulation] take place". How can 'this generation' live to see the 2nd Coming when they are to be killed? "They will deliver you[the apostles] to tribulation and will kill you....(Matt 24:9).
Mark Smith here} You are reading too much INTO the text. Nowhere in Matthew 24 does it say that ALL of that generation would suffer a premature death. If you just read the text and stop putting in your own words, there is no problem.
May I suggest another way to look at the term, 'all these things' in the context of the Parable of the Fig Tree, "When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near". We find similar messianic imagery in Is 11:1, "A shoot will come up from the stump of Jessee; from his roots, a branch will bear fruit". It is found again in Nu 17:8, "And behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded....and brought forth buds..." In Is 53, the messiah is referred to as 'a tender plant' and a 'root out of dry ground'.
If we understand the 'branch' in the Parable of the Fig Tree to represent the messiah, coming forth out of withered Israel, then Matt 32-
~Morella
J Trevor Berger 10-
Subject: Reply to C. S. Lewis's Observations on the Second Coming...
Date: 10/19/2005 6:55:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Mr. Smith,
Upon review of your website, I must respectfully contest your use of C. S. Lewis's exposition on the alleged "ignorance" of Christ in The World's Last Night.
To put it concisely, the Lewis quotes are taken severely out of context. On the one hand, there's no arguing that a man regarded as a champion of orthodoxy would blatantly say that his Master was wrong, after spending the majority of his life defending him. What was the central thesis of The World's Last Night, anyway? Was it that Christ was a fraud, or to help Christians better understand the Second Coming?
Mark Smith here} How long, O'Lord, must I endure this accusation of taking things out of context? And, once again, the xtian doesn't bother to show exactly side by side how my quote totally changes the meaning of what the author meant. No, it's just one more knee-
I will have you know, that at a discussion panel following a public debate I had on this topic, I had anticipated this very accusation. Doesn't make me much of a prophet, though, as you guys ALWAYS cough this one up. Anyway, I had prepared ahead of time xerox copies OF THE ENTIRE CHAPTER that contains the quote and guess what? I WAS STILL ACCUSED OF TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT! I suppose if I had given away copies of the entire book.... no, they'd still make the accusation.
Anyway, I have a section already dealing with this broken record of "out of context" }}}
Answering Christian Stock Arguments
http://jcnot4me.com/Items/evangelical_ath/answering_christian_stock_arguments.htm
The main area of the text you've chosen (the quotes within quotes) were not intended by the author to be his own words: they were illustrative of what the atheist/agnostic argument against the Second Coming would likely be, if taken into consideration. Your use of the passages in Lewis make it appear to those who have no prior knowledge of his work that he was arguing, in this particular essay, quite the opposite of what he was, in fact, arguing. In this essay, Lewis was arguing for a better understanding of the Second Coming: you make it sound as though he was arguing against the Second Coming ever happening.
Mark Smith here} Don't you think I know that already? Can you give me at least a LITTLE credit? Don't you think I've studied this maybe just a little bit more than you? Lewis is doing dialog, but at the end, as the author of the book he steps in with his OWN comments}
It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. …The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. …The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so.
Lewis got around the problem (to his satisfaction, not mine) by claiming that it was JC's human side that made the mistake, not his divine side. BUT AT LEAST LEWIS ADMITTED THAT THERE INDEED WAS A MISTAKE in the first place, which is more than 99.9999999% of the rest of the xtians admit.
Additionally, your remarks betray several theological misconceptions. For one thing, Jesus Himself said that He neither knew the day nor the hour when He would return: He said that such knowledge was held by the Father alone. Christ has already blamed Himself for the very ignorance you claim to have discovered. And Lewis himself points this out at the end of the passage you've quoted. He also goes on to explain how this is part and parcel of Jesus's Manhood. Sure, as Christians we hold Christ to be a God-
Mark Smith here} But you would expect Joe Hovah in the Old Testament to at least know it, wouldn't you? If so, then WHY did Joe Hovah come down to the Tower of Babel to prevent mankind from reaching heaven via a tall building??? (Gee... maybe because who ever really wrote the Bible didn't KNOW any better???)
We understand eternity as the absence of time. What, then, happens to an immortal soul upon the death of its body? Would it not transcend every instance of human history, even, say, the End of Time, the Parousia, the Second Coming, the Final Judgment? Jesus did, in fact, say that this generation shall not pass until all these things are done. But I think that the simple answer to that is that each one of that generation did, in fact, die; their death led them to eternity, to the absence of time, and thus, well past the conception of all ages to the final instant in which they should be finally judged. The hour is, indeed, upon us: it is upon us insofar as the hour of our death is upon us individually, in a subjective sense, at the same time as it is upon us in History, in an objective sense.
Mark Smith here} Blah blah blah blah blah.... bend over and grovel some more, Christian. It's time to grovel and humiliate yourself to your gods. Blah blah blah....
Not only that, how are we to define "generation"? Might one refer to the Triassic Period as a "generation"? In this sense, we would still be in the same "generation" as Jesus Christ; and "this generation", in that sense, is far from over.
Mark Smith here} Gee, how ARE we to define "generation"??? Maybe THIS essay of mine might be a start to answering that question of yours. It uses things like "dictionaries", which are books that contain... of all things! Definitions! Wow! HOW are we to find the definition of a word-
Matthew 24:34 What The Scholars Say
http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second%20Coming%20stuff/Mt%2024-
Christ Himself warned us that alleged prophets and preachers would forever come along declaring the end of the world; it happens all the time (for proof, consult your local televangelist). He also said that various natural disasters, wars, and other problems would come along to entice this idea that the world would be ending soon. And He told us that this is all moonshine. Considered in that light, was He right? Have wars, plagues, famines, natural disasters come along since then, and have a lot of foolish preachers declared the world's end on such an account? Yes, indeed. And have they all been wrong, as He said? It appears to be so: the world is still here. Therefore, while Christ Himself declared He may not have Himself known the day nor the hour, yet Christ has left us no opportunities to outsmart Him, as Lewis pointed out on several occasions.
Mankind continues to try to give their Creator a beating, and He always reminds His Father, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." And His people beat Him again, and thank Him not.
+ J. Trevor Berger, Atlanta
Subject: Jesus is a False Prophet???
Date: 11/1/2005 7:39:18 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
In here Jesus would be calling himself a false prophet based on what you
say.
Matthew 23-
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There
he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will
appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if
that were possible.
Christ doesn't say when the end of the world is, he didn't know only the
father knows based on this scripture below. What you are saying is taken
totally out of context, where in the scripture does it say within their
lifetime?
Mark Smith here} It says it in Mt 24:34, but then, expecting xtians to actually READ their Bibles before trying to TEACH the Bible to others is too much to ask, isn't it??? If you ever DO find the time to look at the verse, might I suggest the following study I wrote:
Matthew 24:34 What The Scholars Say
http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second%20Coming%20stuff/Mt%2024-
Matthew 36-
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor
the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will
be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood,
people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the
day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen
until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the
coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken
and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will
be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will
come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what
time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not
have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the
Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
You are confused and I will pray that you will know the truth.
Mark Smith here} I noticed you were too chickenshit to sign your name to your email. I don't blame you. I'd be ashamed of such a lame email too.
As you point out (but failed to notice) is that the specific DAY and specific HOUR is unknown. What about the specific WEEK? What about the specific YEAR? What about within a certain TIME LIMIT? Was a specific TIME LIMIT laid out? Indeed it was: within the lifetime of those listening to Jesus's false prophecies.
Just as Noah's Flood was due to take place within the lifetime of Noah, so also the Second Coming was due within the lifetime of Jesus' Apostles.
I suggest you study your Bible more, Mr. X.
highwind7@msn.com
Subject: rebuttle to your false prophesy claim
Date: 11/6/2005 5:49:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: Jcnot4me@aol.com
How convient you use a warped rendering of the bible. here is KJ the most
accurate form.
Mark Smith here} How INconvenient it was for me to bust my ass and dig up over FIFTY (50) different translations of Mt 24:34, but of course, real research does not impress the brain dead such as yourself. Oh well, you xtians are never happy...
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away
captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Following the end of the times of the Gentiles, Jesus said the following
would take place:
"25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the
waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after the things
which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and
great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up
your heads for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer
is now night at hand.
31 so likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the
kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be
fulfilled."
Mark Smith here} You know, I don't even know what book / chapter / verse you are quoting from. Have you ANY experience studying and discussing the Bible in even a half-
Good job not taking context into account. verse 24 declares "this
generation" as that which follows the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES. the is the
era or "generation" in which still exists, is that which gentiles are the
dominate believers in the teachings of the messiah correctly named Yeshua.
after the fullness comes in, the jews will regain their position and in that
selfsame generation shall all these things come to past.
Mark Smith here} Where in the FUCK did you get ALL THAT from one little verse??? Oh, I forgot, you can make up shit anytime you want. Sorry. I wish I could just make shit up whenever I needed to win an arguement.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of
death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The Gospel According to Matthew
Return to Index.
Chapter 17
1 And after six days YESHUA taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and
bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and
his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto YESHUA, ADONAY, it is good for us to be
here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and
one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a
voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am
well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore
afraid.
7 And YESHUA came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save YESHUA only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, YESHUA charged them, saying, Tell
the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
and also, what do you think John "saw" when he recorded the book of
Revelation? That's right, homeboy, he "saw" the son of man come in his
glory.
Matt 26:64 YESHUA saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto
you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Did he say before you die? no he did not. perhaps, Caiphas and the legions
and anyone else the son of man charged that they would see him coming was
speaking of when the wicked are resurrected unto judgement?? see revelation
;)
your case against paul being under the assumption that it would come in his
day, is circumstantially weak. "those of us (believers) who are alive and
remain will be caught up." it never said that it would happen in his day.
but even if i give you the benefit of the doubt, men of god have always been
impatient in prediction. Abraham was promised a son to his barren wife by
God, abraham became old and took the matter into his own hands by
impregnating his handmaid. and his wife, sarah, being 90 years old
concieved a son after that, because god FULFILLED his promise nontheless.
In the end, it wasnt "jesus" who failed, it is your context comprehension,
weak scriptural knowledge, and ego that failed you.
Alec 11-
Subject: Jesus a false prophet? Don't think so
Date: 11/8/2005 7:46:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me
All right, I think that I have a more than acceptable explanation of your claiming that Jesus was a false prophet is itself false.
The disciples remark how beautiful the temple is (verse 1, Matthew 24) and Jesus tells them that not one stone of the temple will be left on another (verse 2). Then the disciples first ask Jesus about when the temple will be destroyed and then about his coming and the end of the age. Now if you have read the writings of the historian Flavius Josephus, you will see that through verse 27 Jesus is describing the fall of Jerusalem. Okay, now that that is out of the way, in verse 31 you claim that Jesus is talking about the rapture, which is incorrect. He is speaking about how his elect (Christians) were evacuated from Jerusalem before the Roman assault, possibly by divine power (Acts chapter 8 verse 39 has the Spirit of the Lord taking Philip away, so this is precedented). If you will read Josephus' work, you will see that no Christians were killed in the fall of Jerusalem.
Mark Smith here} Sorry Alec, the text says otherwise. It's not a local evacuation, but rather a world-
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet-
As for the second coming you are wrong as well. Matthew 24 verse 30 says that the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and that they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Then it goes on to the sending of the angels to gather the elect. It doesn't mean that that was the end there, that the second coming has happened and that's it. Jesus appeared to Saul in Acts and his resurrection in the gospels shows that Jesus can come to earth and not have the end happen. He did come then, just not to bring Judgment day.
Mark Smith here} Matthew 24 is universally recognized by ALL Christian scholars as being a Second Coming passage. I don't even need to debate this-
Now, that answers the disciples first question. You'll notice that the fall of Jerusalem had happened within 40 years of this prophecy, within your definition of generation. He then says that the day is unknown to him or any other person for that matter when the end of the age will come (verse 36). So, if you think that Jesus was saying that he was predicting the end of the world you within the generations lifetime you are mistaken. He predicted the fall of Jerusalem would occur within the lifetimes of those living in the present then, not the end of the age. You see?
Mark Smith here} Wrong again. Jesus predicted that "ALL these things..." would take place within the lifetime of those people that were listening to him that day. Please, go back and read the text, and stop reading INTO the text what you want it to say. It is not right that the Atheist has to correct the Christian when it comes to the Bible.
No, you probably won't. I know you will come up with some explanation for this, but just so you know, you haven't got me convinced. You've merely proven to me how people will try fight against the truth and eventually lose.
Also, I would like to ask you some questions about your beliefs. The first you have probably heard before, but I need to ask it. The Big Bang was caused by nothing? There was no cause and effect? Now, it seems that defies all scientific and logical laws governing this universe. From nothing you get nothing.
Mark Smith here} Off topic.
Now how about irreducibly complex organ systems? Organs that rely on every part of itself to function, such as the eye. Such an organ can't be produced gradually as Darwinism states. Millions of generations of organisms would be living with a useless organ until all the parts were evolved. Plus the cells of the body would have to know what in the world they were making with all those parts, which doesn't seem feasible. It would be a miracle for such an organ to just appear in a new generation.
Mark Smith here} Off topic again. That tactic is called a "red herring". Go look it up.
And to finish this off, why aren't there any know processes that add DNA to the chain? It seems odd that our millions of amino acids could have been made when no biological processes are known to add DNA to the chain.
Please respond, I don't care if it's in anger or if you want to actually try to answer my questions and consider this explanation. By the way, I'm 15, so don't go saying that I don't know anything when I've had half the time you have had to learn.
Love,
Alec
Alecs Mom-
Subject: Alec's mom
Date: 11/2/2005 4:09:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me
Dear Mark,
The young man that you have been corresponding with is my 15 year old son. He has displayed much faith in Jesus reaching out and attempting to engage you in a dialogue about Christianity. Your website has provided a forum for discussion in our home about why we believe in Christianity. It has strengthened our faith and provided an opportunity for us to grow in knowledge.
I am an academician and am used to dealing with people who have diverse belief systems. I have read all of your email correspondence with my son and find your defensive, accusatory approach to be childish and counter productive at accomplishing your purpose. It represents you as a hate filled person who is spewing your hatred toward people who love God and God himself. If you want people to listen to you, you need to express your thoughts in a mature fashion, much like the 15 year old who responded to you with sincere concern.
Mark Smith here} Dear Alec's Mom: Maybe the reason you find my writing to be "childish" is that I am only ten years old-
In personally examining your website, I have found many misrepresentations and a lack of clarity on your part that I would like to comment on. First, are you trying to promote atheism or denounce Christianity? I don't feel that you do either effectively. I see you go from topic to topic without much coherency or fluency in your thoughts. You carry many political themes and seem to have mixed agendas. That may have been your purpose.
I have been able to discuss credibility of information on the internet with my son and have provided many examples from your site about authenticity of information, radical portrayals of images/groups of people, and scriptures from the WORD taken out of context and misinterpreted. I believe that he will view all future internet information with a more critical eye and mind. Thank you.
The scriptures that you interpret in reference to gays are all too commonly misused but carry a powerful message that can't be ignored. God's word is clear. He's not instructing us Christians to go and kill gays at all (Leviticus 20:13).
Mark Smith here} Oh REALLY???? You mean I've been reading this verse all wrong??? Gosh golly gee, silly me!!!
Kill All Gays!!!!!: "It's disgusting for men to have sex with one another, and those who do will be put to death, just as they deserve." (The Bible: Leviticus 20:13 CEV)
Romans 1:27..."Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." You neglect to mention that this is referring to sexual diseases that can come from being sexually promiscuous. The example that you used does reinforce that it's considered sexual deviancy and is a sin-
I would have no interest in a "God hates fags" site. I would assume that whoever has put that out there really isn't an authentic Christian, but it sure does make Christians look bad. If you've come across people who have spoken that hatred in the name of Christianity, I would hope that you would be able to spot a fake.
I have searched to find your credentials and have been unsuccessful in my attempts to do so. Would you please answer some questions for me? Were you raised catholic? What are you credentials in regards to the principles of the Christian faith? Do you have credentials in other areas that may add to your credibility? How long have you been an atheist?
The reason that I ask about how you were raised is because I encounter many people who have a distaste for God because of the religiosity of Catholicism. I am not a believer in the human made constructs of religion. I am a Christian, a follower of Christ. Your site seems to depict radical examples of people who I would not define as Christians. I am eligible to say that given that I am a Christian.
We live in a country where we have the right to express our voice, often times at the detriment of others voices. We in effect silence them. What I feel you have meant to use to progress your cause, has in my opinion, confirmed for me what I know to be the Truth. John 3:16-
JC is 4 me and he's 4 you too,
Mark Smith here} No, he's not for me anymore nor is he in me anymore. I had him jammed up my kazoo for 20 years, but finally managed to get him out of there. I suggest you and yours do the same. Life feels much better in the Reality Based Community rather than in the Faith Based Community.
Julie
Alec 11-
Subject: Jesus Not a False Prophet + Evolution false (On topic now?)
Date: 11/14/2005 8:02:22 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me
Wow, you didn't even try to answer my questions about evolution. Just blow them off why don't ya? Dismiss them as "off-
Anyways, since it was a world-
I think that is reasonable. Where does he make a reference to the end of the world after verse 14?
Mark Smith here}
Comments re the Yellow: The text in Matthew 24 says that Jesus will appear in the clouds, i.e. he'll be hovering among the clouds in the sky, maybe dodging 747's.
30 Then will appear the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky; and then will all the nations of the earth lament, when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power and glory.
The text in Matthew 24 also says that the angels will gather up the xtians and bring them to one location.
31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet-
To see exactly WHERE that location is, you have to go to 2nd Thessalonians 2:1, where the text says:
"... the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him"
So, this is the sequence: Jesus in the sky / Christians gathered together-
I hope that answers your question, and once again, we have the spectacle of the Atheist having to teach the Christian the Bible, because the Christian sure ain't learning it in Church!!!
Comments re the Green:
Verse 14 says "...then the end will come" That's pretty plain. But if that's not a clue for you, maybe this verse is:
29 "But immediately after those times of distress the sun will be darkened, the moon will not shed her light, the stars will fall from the firmament, and the forces which control the heavens will be disordered and disturbed.
Stars falling from the sky and crashing into the earth, the sun going dark, the moon also, and the entire universe being disrupted-
Comments re the Gray:
You are correct-
You don't think it applies to "all these things". Sorry, but what you think doesn't matter much, does it? What DOES matter is what the text says, and when Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS will take place before that generation hearing those words first spoken in 33 AD dies out, that ties in the whole chapter. What part of "ALL" don't you understand???
Please try to answer my questions about evolution. I think you'll find evolutionists have to have more faith than Christians when it comes to why you believe what you believe. I haven't had known any evolutionist reply to those arguments in a good response. I guess then neither of our viewpoints are correct?
Mark Smith here} Alec, let me repeat myself-
Here's the questions:
Also, I would like to ask you some questions about your beliefs. The first you have probably heard before, but I need to ask it. The Big Bang was caused by nothing? There was no cause and effect? Now, it seems that defies all scientific and logical laws governing this universe. From nothing you get nothing.
Now how about irreducibly complex organ systems? Organs that rely on every part of itself to function, such as the eye. Such an organ can't be produced gradually as Darwinism states. Millions of generations of organisms would be living with a useless organ until all the parts were evolved. Plus the cells of the body would have to know what in the world they were making with all those parts, which doesn't seem feasible. It would be a miracle for such an organ to just appear in a new generation.
And to finish this off, why aren't there any know processes that add DNA to the chain? It seems odd that our millions of amino acids could have been made when no biological processes are known to add DNA to the chain.
You say you don't believe in God because of the lack of proof for him, but where's all the answers for your belief? I guess you should just believe in nothing so that you don't have to prove anything.
Ooh and it's cool to be on a website! WoOt! You just made my day.
Here's a funny website just cause: http://ualuealuealeuale.ytmnd.com/
Check it out.
Love,
Alec
Kev 11-
Subject: Response in regards to your website
Date: 11/14/2005 8:54:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Proper hermeneutics demands one to employ the context of a message. For instance one may say, “That is a dog.” Now had a dog just walked by on the sidewalk, one could better conclude that the word dog most probably means canine (the meaning that comes to most peoples minds). However, had the speaker just heard a story about a friend who was just fired, the most probable definition for dog would mean something more like a vex.
Mark Smith here} Oh Lord save us! I suspect this guy is going to be one hell of an irritating windbag! "More like a vex" What the hell kind of talk is that? But here goes...
When looking at the gospel account of Jesus’ declaration, in Mathew 24:34, “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled (KJV).” one must look at the surrounding text to better understand the message.
Mark Smith here} Yes, that is why I have included THE ENTIRE CHAPTER in my essay Matthew 24 Verse by Verse , which is why I called it "...Verse by Verse". But I guess you somehow failed to notice, or like most Christians, you're just doing more "drive by theology" where you never take the time to actually READ or STUDY something before you pop off about it.
First one must look at Mathew 24: 35-
Mark Smith here} For the millionth time I need to point out the obvious to Christians: Jesus did NOT claim to nail it down to a specific day or hour of said day, but he DID claim to nail it down to the nearest generation-
that Jesus is most likely not suggesting that the generation of people He is speaking to will see all these things, when He says, “This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Perhaps Jesus is declaring that the generation of people that will see the beginning of these things will not pass away until all of them are fulfilled (i.e. “This generation [the generation of people who see the beginning of these prophesies] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”). Or perhaps, the proper translation of this Hebrew word is race, as opposed to generation. Whether it has to do with syntax or semantics, the context of this passage leads one to understand that Jesus is more than likely not referring to the generation of people he is talking to, unless of course by generation He meant race.
Mark Smith here} "Or perhaps..." you can keep throwing excuses against the wall until one sticks, just as long as its not the most obvious one: the one where Jesus screwed up. That is the way the text reads most naturally-
For more info on your "race" argument, go see my essay: Mt 24:34 What The Scholars Say
Many of your other references are also taken out of context, but since this is were you largest argument lies I decided to deal with it only. Also, you should now that many genuine Christians (not just someone who says they are a Christian) are living their lives today as if Christ could return at any moment. As mentioned earlier, Jesus proclaims that no man knows when His return will be (Mathew 24:36) and soon after this He proclaims, in Mathew 24:42, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” That is why the early church lived their lives with such urgency and that is why the church today does as well.
A few side notes:
One should not base their faith on what others do (i.e. Christians), rather their faith should be based on what Christ did and commanded.
Though C.S. Lewis was a great man of faith, He is not God and all his views are not necessarily fact.
Kev
Brent 11-
Subject: Definition of a hater
Date: 11/18/2005 12:52:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Hey Mike,
I'm about tired of even trying to explain common sense to you after all the "Kool-
Mark Smith here} Actually, I'm not consumed by your religious myths. This web site is a hobby of mine to which I devote maybe a few hours to each week. Outside of this website, I have a normal job, go to movies, have friends, have a wife and kids, laugh, joke, and enjoy life. I bicycle, rollarblade, hike, camp, enjoy sunsets and family time. My life, ever since I dumped your superstitions, has improved. I no longer have to worry about "evil spirits" hiding under my bed or some pervert Biblegod eyeing me 24/7, even while taking a dump. That's YOUR "reality", not mine. You live in the "Faith Based Community", I live in the "Reality Based Community".
The deal is, and it shouldn't be that hard to understand, but apparently, you can't grasp it, EVERY BEING in existance will see Him in the future, "EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM," will be there, becuase all will be brought before God on judgment day.
Mark Smith here} The "every eye" of Rev 1:7 has to do with those who will be alive at the time. IF you've read your Bible, you would know that the resurrection of the sinners won't take place until some time AFTER the Second Coming. According to your myths, the only people who will see the Second Coming will be the people alive at that time AND the Christians who will be raised up to meet him in the air. Please, go study your own Bible before trying to teach it to others.
But you quote it as if it were talking about their physical bodies. There's so much more, but I'm tired of you not listening. The responses I sent you came back to me with responses you put on there that didn't acknowlegde what I had said, but you pretended my points were something you wanted them to be so you could hate them and twiste my words for your own rebuttle. Truth is, if you had listened to what I had written for what I meant them to, and not what you turned them into, you would see they were correct and irrefutable. You twist and turn things to make them something they aren't so you can hate them.
Like in your letter to Jesus. You say, "Anyone who marries without a "test drive" is a fool." and then on to explain your own personal situation. The purpose of sex, along with being the vehicle to fill the Earth, is a bonding act that should only take place between one man and one woman together. It is a symbol of our uniting with Christ and not with any other. To unite yourself with another is to deny Him as diety and committ adultary on God. Obviously, you don't understand sex past an animalistic "instinct", and have missed the beauty it was created for. It is emotionally bonding, physically bonding, and spiritually bonding. There's more than your climax at the end. But you will probably come back with some argument
Mark Smith here} Actually, what I'll come back with is that your comments are off topic, and I don't respond to off topic comments. If you want to discuss that topic, send a separate email about it. I'm not going to try to respond to dozens of topics all scribble-
that goes totally away from what I'm trying to say instead of putting your bruised pride to the side and admitting I'm correct. Then you say God was wrong about turning the other cheek. Well, again, sorry your emotional response doesn't agree with GOD'S COMMANDS, but hey, you know everything. No need to pay attention to what He says. Many men were persecuted for their faith, and many have died because people like you hate so much, they can't control their emotions and think, if it's right for them, it must be the right thing, they didn't care what God said. I believe in protecting my family, but I believe in obeying God more, and nothing happens outside of His will. We can't see the whole picture like He does. You say the preacher that got electricuted proves God doesn't look out for His faithful believers, but your not looking at it from the right position. If God takes Him and brings the preacher to heaven, he's not suffering, but to the human understanding, we think, "How tragic, he died in pain" but these bodies are temporary, God has a bigger perspective on things, and the death of that one man has brought about more conversations and gotten more publicity to start more conversations than he would ever have been able to reach out to peopel alive. Maybe that was one of God's purposes. Only He knows. Also, God didn't say the future would take care of itself, it says God will take care of your needs, Food, Clothes, Shelter, etc. if you seek Him first. This means exactly what it says, God takes care of your needs, and He knows what you need at what times.
I'm sorry I'm so tired of ARGUING with you. YOU, yes YOU need to look at how you take information. You are just as guilty of rejecting what I and others say with your closed mind as you accuse us of doing. Why don't you try reading facts for what they are and quit distorting them only to try and discredit the person you misquoted in the first place? I hope you can see the light. I really do, but you have to seek God first. Once you quit trying to be hate driven and instead, call on God to give you understanding, I think you will be a lot better off.
-
Nathaniel Responds to Brent 11-
Subject: JCnot4me.com
Date: 11/26/2005 11:19:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: brentmcbain@gmail.com
CC: JCnot4me
OOOOO BRENT MCBAIN !
Are you a PRIVATE DICK? "The Continuing Adventures of BRENT MCBAIN, private dick!"
You are SOOOO right to castigate Mister Smith! He is SOOO hateful that he just spent FIVE AND A HALF HOURS patiently reading and answering the email he receives concerning his site. EVEN NASTY MEAN-
Unlike YOU, McBain, HE HAS A LIFE! Yet he regularly sacrifices huge chunks of time to answer people who email him. Name other high-
Also, Mark has no need to withdraw into a fantasy world in which his Invisible Friend is the Lord and Master of THE ENTIRE YOONY-
I have never met you, yet reading your words sickens me, disgusts me, repulses me, makes me nauseous, flatulent and bilious. Your credulity and stupidity are exceeded only by your stupidity and credulity.
Pull your head out of your ass pal, I have a NEWSFLASH for you. You can believe in your Invisible Pal with all your might AND YOU'RE STILL GONNA DIE! You can memorize the entire fucking shit-
ROT IN A BOX !
Your "God" is POWERLESS to stop it! You can believe you have ETERNAL LIFE with your whole BEING, ASSWIPE, but you're gonna
ROT IN A BOX!
You smug worm-
Your kind make me fucking SICK! GROW UP! Stop castigating cool, caring people such as Mark and start DEALING WITH YOURSELF shit head! You know, that part where Jeebus said to remove the BEAM from your own eye before you go around trying to remove the speck from others eyes? Surely, a Great Brain such as yours can REMEMBER that verse? hello is anybody home??? I know, it'll take from now till next Thanksgiving to perfect yourself BUT THERES NO TIME LIKE THE PRESENT, ass munch!
You don't really CARE about people MCBRAINLESS, you merely see them as disembodied 'souls' to be saved. Mark actually CARES about PEOPLE (not their 'souls'), that's why he puts up the political material he does! YOU have your HEAD up Dubya ass while you jerk Dubya off and eat his cum! Dubya is a rich fuck. Do you really think that BASTARD cares about you AT ALL? You're insane, you're dangerous, you're a dumbass, but most of all, you're a TOOL!
Die choking on you own blood MAGGOT!
Nate
Brent 11-
Subject: reply for Brent McBain
Date: 11/28/2005 1:01:58 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Hey Mark, (sorry I called you Mike in the last letter)
Thanks for taking your time to answer my last letter. I DO appreciate your time. I would like for you to put this correction up on the email I wrote you last (Definition of a hater ). I appologize for having jumbled two thoughts together and not really explaining what we believe. When you read Phillipians 2:10-
Mark Smith here} Sorry Brent, but you are figuratizing something just to make the implications go away. Nowhere does it imply that this is talking about every single human who has ever walked this earth. The verse says:
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. (Rev 1:7, N.I.V.)
As you can see, the "even those..." remark limits that phrase to just those who did the actually physical piercing of Jesus' side while he was on the cross. So what this verse is (falsely) promising is that those Roman soldiers who stuck their spears into the side of Jesus while he was on the cross, Jesus will do his Second Coming within their lifetime-
Therefore, all of the people mourn because He has come as a judge. So the reference to the people you have is correct, that it is for the people on the Earth, but all of those people are also responsible because all of our sin has crucified Him, so they are the people who have pierced Him, not meaning the Roman guard who hit him with a spear. I have studied my Bible, but I am not without my mistakes and I didn't have my Bible on hand with me. So, sorry it was a bad reference the first time, but this should clear that up. So, it still means that there is no false statement made here in Revelation.
To add to this subject in general, you say that in Matthew, Jesus makes a statement that some of them won't die before He comes back and all of the prophecy comes to pass,
Matthew 24:34, "I tell you the truth,50 this generation 51 will not pass away until all these things take place."(Net Bible)
(Notes on Matthew 24:34 from) 51sn This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels to interpret. Various views exist for what generation means. (1) Some take it as meaning "race" and thus as an assurance that the Jewish race (nation) will not pass away. But it is very questionable that the Greek term ãåíåÜ (genea) can have this meaning. Two other options are possible. (2) Generation might mean "this type of generation" and refer to the generation of wicked humanity. Then the point is that humanity will not perish, because God will redeem it. Or (3) generation may refer to "the generation that sees the signs of the end" (v. 30), who will also see the end itself. In other words, once the movement to the return of Christ starts, all the events connected with it happen very quickly, in rapid succession.(reference; http://www.bible.org/netbible/mat24_notes.htm#2452)
So when these scholars looked at the Greek version, the translation is probably referring to the generation of people that are here when things start.
Mark Smith here} Brent, if you'd like to see what MOST Christian scholars say about the verse in question, I put together "the final word" in which you can learn all you'd ever want to know about Mt. 24:34 and the key word "genea". Every thing is fully documented, you can look up the sources for yourself and confirm I'm not making this shit up, nor am I ripping things from their context.
Matthew 24:34 What The Scholars Say
http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second%20Coming%20stuff/Mt%2024-
What you're going to learn is this: Jesus promised to return within the lifetime of the folks who heard him make the promise back in 33 AD. That's a fact, a fact backed up by the top Christian scholars in the world. What you DO with that fact is up to you. What I did with that fact is reject Jesus-
BUT HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART, you choose to pick at these little pieces that we go back and forth on that are really, when looked at with the rest of scripture, turn out not to be the contradictions of truth that you thought they would be. Look at the historical fact of who Jesus was, what He did, what He said, and then ask yourself, why would I reject and cut down a being of perfect Love who, if it is true, came to the Earth to save me? Why go away from that? Why continue to argue against Jesus as if it weren't true, when there is more evidence that He existed and did and said what is written about Him than evidence that George Washington exists. (speaking of actual historical documents, the Books of Matthew Mark Luke and John are included, as well as the historical facts that these men that started the early church died for this. Had it all been made up, and they had all been lies about Jesus life, why would men die for it? Some men die for other religions and beliefs, but what I'm arguing is that if what they were saying about first hand accounts with Jesus were not true, why would they die for it?
And just to say something about Nathan's response to my email, all I could do was laugh in a sad way. My comments came from what is obvious hate for a certain group of people, and I see no evidence of anything else, so my "assessment" of you, Mark, is in line with what is portrayed on the site, but on the same token, I appologize for attacking you because that isn't what I'm about, and I don't know who you are outside of this site. I am sorry I let my emotions get away from me. Again. It's difficult not to, especially when these things are written about you. And then to tell me that I have no idea what Mark is really like, and all of the things said about him portraying him as a good man are all washed away in Nathans attempt to explain this while doing the same thing to me. My email had been rejected from replying when I tried to explain my other comments to Nathan, so he was either scared to take it, ( which I know he won't claim that) or he is filled with everything he has accused me of. I just have to say, for a Doctor of whatever he is a doctor of, the response he wrote sure sounds like the response of an angry Junior High-
So, sorry I didn't have the correct stuff in this last email, which doesn't explain the bad responses to the other emails, I'll site them if you care to discuss further. I don't really want to make enemies of you all, and I would love for you guys to see the message of Christ's Love and to truly seek out who He is, and not misinterpret scripture. I'll be praying for BOTH of you, but also for myself to understand you better and not make you my enemy inside my own heart. Brent.
Multi-
Re: Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 2977 of 2983
since 08-
Emperor Class
There are those (eg. Thomas L. THompson) who read many of the apocalyptic passages in the Gospels as metaphor, Isaiah did as much. However, it seems to me that if we allow an early (pre70) date for the writing of at least Mark then quite possibly the language was reinterpreted post 70 as literal. This then motivated the insertion of overt references to Jerusalem's capture and references to multinational judgment.
IP: 54zUB+MQdaDvnNxN
Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 5958 of 5966
since 01-
Supreme One
PP...On this subject, you might recall my thread on the relationship between Mark 13 and Daniel and 1 Maccabees.
http://www.jehovahs-
It seems that unlike Luke and Matthew, Mark reflects longstanding eschatological expectations about a final persecution and attack on the Temple (due to the failure for Daniel's expectations on the restoration of Israel to occur at the end of the Maccabean crisis), along the lines described in Daniel and 1 Maccabees, and there seems to be relatively little in Mark 13 that necessitates any actual reminiscence of the events of AD 70, other than the certainty that the events would come to pass. The oracle is cast almost entirely in the language of past tribulations (= the Antiochene persecution), so dependence on Daniel and 1 Maccabees may explain the features of the text, yet even the statement in Luke about Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies may be influenced by 1 Maccabees as well, tho actual history memory of a surrounded Jerusalem may explain the passage as well.
IP: a0zmo2T045vx9zzM
Re: Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 2979 of 2983
since 08-
Emperor Class
I recall the thread and admire the work. It is the kind of observation that leads Thompson to the conclusion that the writer of Mark was NOT referring to a specific expected event but rather using the language and well worn motifs as parables of the KIngdom as a path of righteousness. The motif of a lost generation, destruction of the ungodly and salvation of the righteous was put in Jeus mouth not as a prophecy but as parable and metaphor. This well explains why Jeus is made to say that the kingdom had overtaken them and was not coming with observableness yet (hypothetically) later layers have him saying just the opposite. I feel the eathquakes, war madness, and pestilence et.al are simply part of the OT motif of the arrival of Yahweh as judge. I suspect that chapt 13 was tweeked (I know you agree) after 70 (or 135) to literalize the motifs as signs dispite Jesus otherwheres saying that there would be none.
IP: 54zUB+MQdaDvnNxN
Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 5959 of 5966
since 01-
Supreme One
There is also an interesting idea that the "Little Apocalypse" in Mark 13 derives from a Jewish apocryphon dating to c. AD 39, inspired by Caligula's plans for installing his statue in the Jerusalem Temple. What makes this suggestion attractive is that the connection to Daniel and its "abomination of desolation" (i.e. the heathen altar, or a statue of Jupiter as the tradition had become by the first century) fits better with what Caligula threatened to do than with the Roman suppression of Jewish nationalists in Judea in 66-
IP: a0zmo2T045vx9zzM
Re: Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 694 of 695
since 01-
Master member
51 y 1 m 14 d
United States, Ohio
Leolaia,
This is the end of the 'Jewish system of things', not the end of the world. Similiar language in other passages may or may not be a reference to the same events. 'This generation' is the one of the disciples who knew Jesus personally. Even though they expected the Lord any day (as we still do!) and may have understood Jesus' words that way, this is not what happened. The point is that we are to live each day as if He is coming the next, as our own judgment occurs at our physical deaths. Also, I would not give equal credence to Aprocryphal works in regards to valid scripture. Those books were not part of the Canon for some very good reasons. Full preterism is a heresy and I do not ascribe to it. Have you explored Covenant theology?
Rex
IP: eBx5TNzh1GZFWQ4+
Re: Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 2980 of 2983
since 08-
Emperor Class
Interesting, I think I heard somehting of that suggestion before. Perhaps I should not suggest the Jersalem and multinational judgment elements be later layer. These elements still work within the overall framework of using apocalypitc language to teach the secret truth of the mysterious kingdom. The recent events of 70 would add poignancy to the parable. The recurring theme of a generation lacking understanding of parables and mysteries of the Kingdom is voiced to the reader, "You get the meaning of this story right?" Maybe I am finally.
IP: 54zUB+MQdaDvnNxN
05-
Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 5960 of 5966
since 01-
Supreme One
Shining One....Limiting the reference to just the end of the Jewish sacerdotal system in AD 70 doesn't wash. Again, to reiterate the main points, v. 34 says that "this generation," the generation of Jesus, will not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS occur....which includes the entirety of what is narrated in v. 4-
IP: a0zmo2T045vx9zzM
Re: Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 695 of 695
since 01-
Master member
51 y 1 m 14 d
United States, Ohio
Hi Leolaia,
Thank you for your input and research. Perhaps I can show you what I am driving at below...
Partial preterists see the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilling Jesus prophecies concerning the destruction of Jerusalem.
In Mat 23:35-
Mat 23:35-
In Luke 23:28 Jesus said "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children" indicating that destruction would come upon them and their children.
Jesus prophecies about Jerusalem
Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 record a prophecy that Jesus made about the destruction of the temple which was fulfilled in AD 70.
(Mat 24:1-
(Jesus gave other prophecies regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, which are given below.) As Jesus approached Jerusalem for the last time (for no prophet can die outside Jerusalem).
(Luke 19:41-
As Jesus was on the way towards the cross, Simon from Cyrene carried the cross behind Jesus and many people followed him including women who mourned and wailed for him.
(Luke 23:28-
Jesus says that this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world (Mat 23:34-
(Mat 23:34-
(Luke 11:49-
In the parable of the landowner who planted a vineyard, Jesus is talking about how the Jews beat and killed God's prophets and finally they killed God's Son.
(Mat 21:33-
Let's talk about the Great Distress of Mat 24:21: the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70
Although the period of great distress in Mat 24:21 is usually thought to be world-
Luke's parallel account (21:20-
It is local to the region of Judea-
>>>The fact that Jesus says that it is "never to be equaled again" should indicate to us that it does not occur at the end of the world.
Dominionism teaches that the earth will eventually be overcome by Christianity and at that time Christ will return to rule. This teaching has a lot of input regarding preterism. Full preterism has no return of Christ and is therefore a heresy. Here is a list of some authors on this subject:
Greg L. Bahnsen of the Southern California Center for Christian Studies. David Chilton: He adopted hyper-
I don't endorse these guys but some of their views on eschatology makes sense.
Rex
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Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 5961 of 5966
since 01-
Supreme One
Here is a comparison of Mark 13 and 4 Ezra, suggesting that possibly both derive from a common apocalyptic source:
Mark 13
4 Ezra
"Tell us, when is this going to happen, and what sign will there be that all this is about to be fulfilled [and the end of the age, Matthew 24:3]?" (v. 4).
"How long and when will these things be?" (4:33). "Concerning the signs about which you ask me, I can tell you in part" (5:52). "What will be the dividing of the times? Or when will the end of the first age and the beginning of the age that follows" (6:7). "You have now shown me a multitude of signs which you will do in the last times, but you have not shown when you will do them" (8:63).
"When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed, this is something that must happen, but the end is not yet. For nation will fight against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (v. 7-
"You will hear a full resounding voice, ... do not be terrified, for the word concerns the end" (6:14). "They shall plan to make war against one another, city against city, place against place, people against people, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:31).
"There will be earthquakes here and there; there will be famines. This is the beginning of the birthpangs" (v. 8b-
"If the place where you are standing is greatly shaken while the voice is speaking, do not be terrified" (6:14). "There shall appear in the world earthquakes, tumult of peoples, intrigues of nations" (9:3). "Just as a woman who is in travail makes haste to escape the pangs of birth..." (5:42).
"Brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child; children will rise against their parents and have them put to death" (v. 12)
"The man who stands firm to the end will be saved" (v. 13).
"When you see the disastrous abomination set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must escape to the mountains" (v. 14).
"Alas for those with child, or with babies at the breast, when those days come!" (v. 16).
"If the Lord had not shortened the time, no one would have survived; but he did shorten the time, for the sake of the elect whom he chose" (v. 20).
"The sun will be darkened, the moon will loose its brightness, the stars will come falling from heaven and the powers in the heavens will be shaken" (v. 24-
"Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, then too he will send the angels to gather his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the world to the ends of heaven" (v. 26-
"At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies" (6:24).
"O Lord, you have charge of those who are alive at the end" (5:41). "Whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you shall be saved" (6:25). "And everyone who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders" (7:27).
"An innumerable multitude shall be gathered together, as you saw, desiring to conquer [the Messiah], but he will stand on the top of Mount Zion" (13:34-
"Menstruous women shall bring forth monsters" (5:8). "Women with child shall give birth to premature children at three or four months" (6:21).
"You do not hasten faster than the Most High, for your haste is for yourself, but the Most High hastens on the behalf of many... It is on our behalf that the time of threshing is delayed for the sake of the righteous" (5:34, 39).
"The sun shall suddenly shine forth at night, and the moon during the day, blood shall drip from wood, and the stone shall utter its voice; the peoples shall be troubled, and the stars shall fall" (5:4-
"The trumpet will sound aloud" (6:23). "For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him" (7:28). "I looked and saw a man coming out of the heart of the sea ... flying with the clouds of heaven. ... And after this I saw an innumerable multitude of men who were gathered together from the four winds of heaven" (13:3, 5).
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Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 5962 of 5966
since 01-
Supreme One
Rex...Yes, I am well aware that the eschatological discourse had the expected destruction of the Temple as a primary focus, and that Matthew and Luke applied the discourse in part to the events of AD 70, but again this does not mean that the oracle concerns only happenings local to Judea as they occurred in AD 70 and not a subsequent worldwide judgment shortly afterward, for this is what the text states, and attempts to circumvent its plain meaning are unconvincing. You say, for instance, that "it is local to the region of Judea, it is not worldwide, because those in Judea are told to flee to the mountains in all three parallel accounts," but this is argued on the flawed a priori premise that the text must only refer to the local context when it does in fact refer first to events within Judea (v. 15-
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Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 10217 of 10219
since 31-
Supreme One
Leo said
The implication of the text, when read straightforwardly, is that Jerusalem will be desolated and shortly afterward the end of the world will come for "all tribes of the earth".
While i don't argue w tha basic premise, seeing the heavy antigentile bias of the jews at that time, the following quotes are likely pointing towards jews, not gentiles. Jews considered themselves more human, more in touch w god than the unclean ones, the surrounding gentiles.
angels will then "gather his elect from the four winds,
"all the tribes of the earth"
scope then widens to all of humanity, thus "no human being would be saved"
Humanity = jews
Tribes = the 12 tribes
It does leave open the possiblity of it meaning that the surrounding gentiles would beat themselves when they beheld the jewish messiah coming in the clouds. Not that that happened, of course.
S
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05-
Re: Matthew 24 Verse By Verse
05-
Post 5963 of 5966
since 01-
Supreme One
Satanus....I agree with you to some extent, that the theme of the final regathering of Israel at the end times may indeed lie behind this passage in whatever original Jewish apocalypse it derives from. Thus the passage itself mentions the gathering of the "elect" and not all of humanity, tho the elect is gathered from all corners of the earth. This is in accord with the views in Psalms of Solomon 17:26-
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn (kopsontai pasai hai phulai tés gés), and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds (erkhemenon epi tón nephalón) of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30).
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds (erkhetai meta tón nephalón), and every eye will see him, everyone who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail (kopsontai pasai hai phulai tés gés) on account of him" (Revelation 1:7).
My point in raising these texts, btw, is to emphasize that the scope of Matthew 24 is not limited to Judah but universal in scope when the events culminate in the Son of Man's coming in judgment on the earth.
GT 12-
Subject: Jesus a false prophet?
Date: 12/22/2005 5:40:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me
You may have many legitimate complaints against Christ but on this one, you missed. There are two(2) questions asked in Matthew 24:3. First question, "When will these things("not one stone left on another"of verse 2) happen and, Second question, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Two distinctly different questions.
Jesus answers the two questions in the order that they were asked.
"Not one stone left standing on another" is prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army. Jesus warns about this and to flee the city when the Roman army comes in verses 4 thru 35.
If he was talking about his return, what difference would it make if it were winter? Verse 20. Or difficult for pregnant and nursing women? verse 19. or if it was the Sabbath when the gate would be closed? He is talking about flight from Jerusalem v.20.
He says it won't last long v.22.
It is going to be bad. v.21. Over 1,000,000 people were killed.
Remember that he is an Old Testament prophet. He talks just like he did when he spoke through Jeremiah, Isaiah and the others. He is talking about the judgment against Jerusalem in vs.29.
Jerusalem fell to the Roman army and was leveled about 70 AD. Maybe 40 years after this warning was spoken. Before that generation passed away.v.34.
Jesus then answers the second question, the one about his return in verses 36 on thru chapter 25.
v.44 ....the son of man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
I will write again soon first chance I get and explain about his Kingdom came within the lifetime of those people. Pentecost to be exact. The Kingdom is not of this world and so the world does not recognize it. You might not understand that.
anyway, later G.T.
Mark Smith here} Sorry Charlie, but there isn't a shred of evidence to back up this lame ass "God of the Gaps" theory.
Several years ago, I went to hear a lecture in Costa Mesa, California, by Dr. Wayne House (who used to be with Dallas Theological Seminary) on Matthew 24. In the lecture he stated that the context showed that part of the chapter deals with issues for "back then" while other parts dealt with the future-
This "Gap Theory" makes the mistake of artificially introducing breaks in the narrative where none exist. There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of what you are claiming: none whatsoever. It is pure speculation, contrived only to "save the savior" from being a false prophet. If Dr. Wayne House, an internationally recognized expert in these issues, couldn't show me the evidence for these gaps, neither can you.
The Preterists have done a fine job tearing this Gap Theory to shreds, showing that the entire chapter stands or falls together-
Ross Caved 8-
SINCE GOD GAVE US FREE WILL, YOU'RE ENTITLED TO BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE.
I THINK, HOWEVER, THAT YOU HAVE MISTAKEN THE GENERATION THAT SAW THE 2ND TEMPLE'S DESTRUCTION, EXACTLY AS JESUS PREDICTED, WITH THE FUTURE GENERATION THAT WILL SEE JESUS COMING IN A CLOUD, AND IN HIS 2ND COMING.
THESE TWO DISTINCT "GENERATIONS" ARE MORE CLEARLY DEFINED IN LUKE 21:20-
PERHAPS, YOU WILL KEEP AND OPEN MIND AND TAKE A 2ND LOOK...
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.
ROSS CAVED
Calvin Gregory 8/9/07
I came across your website, and I see that your main problem is with the prophecies that Jesus made in the Book of Matthew. Just to clarify things, you are incorrect in your interpretation of Scripture.
In Matthew 23 we read:
Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
I know that your main issue was with verse 34. If you study the ancient greek, you will learn what was originally written. The generation that Jesus was speaking of was not the generation of people that were listening to Him speak. He was referring to the generation that "sees the abomination that causes desolation" in the temple. The verb tense used in the ancient Greek clearly identifies the fact the Jesus was not talking about those listening, but He was referring to the generation that would witness that one last sign.
He was saying, when you see the abomination of desolation set himself up in the temple, the generation that sees this will not pass away before He comes again.
I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask me.
Sincerely,
Calvin Gregory
ebedagh@yahoo.com
Psalm 91
Devra Ryker 10-
Thanks for the reply back. I would like a tip or two on how best to refute the preterist doctrine. When you find the time, I would appreciate any advice.
Thanks, Devra Ryker
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From: JCnot4me@aol.com
To: -
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: Thank you for the outstanding research!
In a message dated 5/16/2007 6:45:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,writes:
Mark,
I am a devout ( yet deeply flawed Christian). I can't tell you how helpful your studies have been to me. I am married to a preterist and I do not agree with the doctrine but your words will prove most helpful on alot of levels.
What most impresses me is that an atheist could provide something so helpful to me! I had to just skim over some of the more insulting parts...there was no offense taken though.
I was baptized at age 7, and afterward as I walked down the middle aisle of the church building, (it had emptied out), I heard what sounded like thousands of angels singing. The sound only lasted about 10 seconds. I have always been 4JC. God Bless You, Brother.
Debbie
Hi Debbie. Thanks for the email. Yeah, I gotta work at being nicer (that's what my significant other tells me). So sorry if I hurt your feelings any. And good luck with the Preterist (you'll need it!)
Yours NOT in Christ,
-
www.JCnot4me.com
Dion Sanchez 10/26/07
Who told you that Jesus did not return as He said He would? All three gospels (Matt 24/Luke 21/Mark 13) teach that Jesus' return was in connection with the destruction of Jerusalem!
Mark here: Reality told me. He's not here. I even checked under my bed this morning. He's not here. Look under your bed-
Therefore if Jersualem was destroyed (70 AD) then we must conclude that Jesus returned.
Mark here: “WE must”??? Maybe you, because you’re a Fundy, but not me-
Don't blame JC just because you are over-
It is clear that you haven't spent time in the history of Interpretation. Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, Jerome, many others understood that the return was connected to the end of Jerusalem. Do a little research and get back to me.
