|
Table of Contents
Joey_Zarnsy__8-14-04
Joey Zarnsy 8-14-04
Subject: Defense of the Attonement
Date: 8/14/2004 4:22:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: jzarnsy@hotmail.com
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Mark Smith here} You know
Joey, normally after I paste in a person's email, I add my own comments. But
seeing how you've flooded with with inane, unsubstantiated, and undocumented
comments on maybe two dozen of my well thought out essays, I'm not even
going to WASTE MY TIME on this one. My essay showing the stupidities of your
Atonement doctrine still stand, and anyone who reads it knows it.
Ok, just like the last one. I quote your headings and tell you what (if
anything) is wrong with it.
Biblegod Hits Thumb With Hammer- Sins Forgiven
It wasn't pain that paid for all sins. The way it works is that all sin was
placed upon Jesus while He was on the cross. He willingly, and quite literally
became sin, as 2 Corinthians 5:21 says. This is different from being a sinner.
Jesus became sin itself. (An short explanation of this is at this site, if you'd
care to read more into it.) God then crushed that sin. God basically smote
Jesus. The great wrath He had stored up against an eternity's worth of hate,
selfishness, and evil, He let loose on Jesus. For that moment in time, the Son
was separated from the Father. So Jesus quite literally endured Hell on the
cross, as Hell is eternal separation from the Father. God satisfied His perfect
justice by doing that. Because of that God now looks at our account (I'm
refering to those that have accepted Jesus' gift), and instead of seeing the
words, "OUTSTANDING SIN; INSUFFICIENT GOOD WORKS," God sees, "PAID IN FULL."
Also worth mention, in light of that little cartoon, is that each part of the
Trinity isn't a separate "god," as you often say. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
are three beings, that comprise one divine essence. It's kinda hard for our
minds to grasp, but, essentially, He's the Three-in-One. Each part has different
roles. The Father is the ultimate Judge, Jury, and Executioner of Divine
Justice. He authored Creation. The Son carried out Creation (spoke the words),
and later was incarnated as a human being, named Jesus, from Nazereth. He is the
Messiah, which is the voluntary object of God's wrath for us. The Holy Spirit
is, as Jesus describes it to his disciples, the Good Helper. The Holy Spirit
resides in our world, in our hearts (again, those that allow it to). It is via
the Spirit we are baptized, we are inspired, and we are changed in our hearts,
to be more holy.
He Who is Guilty of the Crime Must Do the Time
Here's an example that illustrates it well. Let's say you're a father. You have
a little daughter. While playing, and being reckless, she knocks over a lamp and
it breaks. She has no money, and cannot replace it. You could spank her, send
her to her room, and make her do something to earn the money and replace it, but
you're a loving father, and you'd rather not bear to see her punished so. You
want to spend time with her, not send her away. You're also just, so you can't
just let the lamp remain unreplaced. Someone has to replace the lamp. You offer
your daughter the chance to be forgiven for the lamp, if she so chooses. You
offer to pay for the lamp yourself, as you have more than enough money to cover
the cost, and she doesn't. You tell her, though, that she has to promise to stop
being reckless in her playtime. You know she'll break a few more things along
the way, but you know that, with your love and help, she'll try her best not to,
and she won't intentionally break stuff. You willingly offer all this, and she
willingly accepts the offer.
This is much like how the Atonement works. God wants us. He wants us to choose
to be with Him, and to love Him. But He knows that we're sinful beings, and that
we're too impure to even be in His presence. His perfect justice cannot allow
evil to go un-righted. So He's gone ahead and paid the price for us! All we
hafta do is say, "Thanks a lot, Jesus. I appreciate what you paid for me
[although at times we won't even admit there's a bill to be paid], and I'm
willing to follow a path of righteousness for You, and turn away from sin. I
will live my life for You, and love You, and others, as You commanded me. I'll
tell others of this great offer of Yours." As I noted above, we're PAID IN FULL
after we trully say this in our heart. And since we're PAID IN FULL, we can
spend all eternity with us. Now, unfortunately, there are those that are too
proud and/or stubborn to accept this gift. They try to pay the bill themselves,
or they simply refuse to stop racking up the bill. These people are, by their
own choice, telling God that they'd rather be apart from Him for eternity. He
grants that request. The point is, that if you wanna do the time for your
crimes, then by all means go ahead, but don't expect it to be anything less than
a living Hell.
Jesus The Perfect Human Died for Sins: Really?
The point when it's said that Jesus lived a perfect life is that he himself
deserved no punishment whatsoever. For him to have been a sinner himself would
be paying a nickel with a nickel. You can'y pay for sin if you yourself are
guilty of sin. Also, although the Atonement was Jesus' primary purpose, he was
also to be an example of how to live, and a good moral teacher. He wasn't only a
good moral teacher and a good example, but he was those things, on top of being
the Messiah.
Anybody who claims Jesus was only half-human is either lying or confused
profoundly. Jesus was fully human. I know this math doesn't work very well with
us, but he was 100% God, and 100% man. This doesn't seem possible to us, but
then again, I'm not divine when I try to add things together, so I'm in no place
to say it's impossible. Jesus was perfectly human. He had a head, a face, eyes,
nose, a mouth, hands, fingers, and toes, a head of hair, and more than likely, a
beard. He ate, he drank, he slept, he coughed, he got tired, he could bleed (as
he did at his most important hour), and yes, he even went to the bathroom. He
laughed, he cried, he yawned, he screamed. He loved, he became angry, he
forgave, he rebuked, and he thought. He was a walking, talking human being. We
know, from both Christian and non-Christian sources, that this man existed, adn
that he died. Does his birth and death not prove his humanity?
In regard to the whole "God raped Mary" thing, and how Jesus was only 1/4th
human... Think of what causes life to happen. God. (I know you do not believe
this, but I'd rather not make this a creation-evolution debate. I'll just ask
you if you happen to know of anything else that could create everything from
nothing.) God can create a universe from absolutely nothing. Nothing- what rocks
dream about. If He can do that, I think He can make a person without sex being
involved (i.e., making Adam from dust). For all we know, God used DNA, just like
any other birth, except this DNA didn't belong to any man alive. I don't really
know. If at all possible, maybe when He comes back, you could ask Jesus for a
blood sample and a microscope before He commences with Judgment Day. Rape is
forcing yourself sexually on another against their will. God didn't have sex
with Mary. He gave her the gift of a baby son (not just any son, but THE Son).
In that time and culture, it was a great thing to have a son. A woman was seen
as almost worthless (even more so than normal) if she didn't/couldn't produce an
heir for her husband. God gave her something she was more than happy to acquire,
and even let her have a part in the salvation of the world. She's even called
(although I personally don't agree with it) the Mother of God. I get the feeling
that she was every bit consentual. And besides, I doubt God would choose a woman
that wasn't up to it. He doesn't override free will, remember? Your logic treats
God as though He was subject to the laws of nature, rather than the Creator of
nature, itself.
A Savior on Steroids?
Again, Jesus was 100% human, and he had a free will. And there is plenty of
evidence in Scripture to show that when Jesus was on earth, He didn't have all
the power of God at his disposal. He had some, yes, but not all. He didn't have
all knowledge while on earth, as he himself admits that even he doesn't know the
hour he's coming back. He didn't have all power, since it was said he couldn't
perform miracles in his own country. God limited His own power when He became
Jesus of Nazereth. He had no "unfair advantage." He did make better choices,
though. He had more knowledge and power than any other, but still those people
had enough opportunity to do good, instead of evil. So maybe, someone else could
have done it, but I doubt it. I'll be honest and admit that if I could walk on
water, or call forth an entire legion of angels, I'd be all over that
opportunity on my campus. I prolly would use it for personal gain, not to help
others and eventually bring about my own crucifixtion, salvation of the world
being needed or not.
A Sinless Human Had to Die to Pay off Debt of Sin?
Answered by my response to previous parts. Jesus' body wasn't literally the
price paid. The blood itself didn't do it. The act by which the blood was
spilled was the act what God used to do it. The mere act of death wasn't it. It
was His death and resurrection. He conquered sin with his death, and conquered
death by his resurrection.
The Atonement Makes Sense?
As I illustrated earlier, yes, it does. Your view of God seems pretty warped.
I'd advise reading the Bible. I think my responses so far in this email, and in
all of my others, you'll find reasons why your definition of God is off. The
rules God defined aren't just for His entertainment. They're for our own good.
Every sin not only hurts God, but hurts us, and lessens the quality of our own
lives. Premarital sex is sinful, and it also hurts us. God made sex, so He knows
the best way to use it. He tells us that it's best when in a lifetime
relationship with our (opposite-sex) partner. Broken homes are the result of
marriage and sex not being treated like they should be.
The Death of Jesus
Ummm, this paragraph is purely unsupported. Read the Old Testament, especially
Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53. It was in God's plan all along. Jesus kept telling them
even, that he'd die and rise again, and that it had to happen.
Death of Jesus A Waste
I really don't consider the act that brough about the opportunity for all
mankind to live in eternal happiness to be a waste... Yes, Jesus forgave sins
during his life, but what about those that had already been dead, and those who
were yet to be born? You have to realize that although we may be able to think
of other alternatives to the way God does things, His superiority of knowledge
and wisdom compared to ours means we just hafta trust that His way is the best
method. If it got the job done, why question it?
You kinda get a little repetetive in the next paragraph, but the same applies to
that one, too.
Jesus Paid The Price?
The site I linked to in the beginning of this email explains that Jesus paid a
different price than we would, if we end up paying. Sinners suffer hell. Jesus
literally became sin itself. There's a difference, so there's a difference in
the penalty. Also, you need to realize that God knew what He was doing when He
did it. It's not like there was a chance He'd do it, and then say, "What th-
How'd My Son become full of all that sin?" God knew what He was doing, and He
knew how to make it work. He did exactly what He felt would make it work best
for what His purpose was.
All in all, I noticed you seem to have a major problem grasping the concept of
the Atonement. I hope it's just because you've never been exposed to the truth
about it, and how it actually works. I hope then, that you're much more educated
about it.
Oh, and one more thing, about the innocent suffering for the guilty. It's
similar to giving money or food to the needy. You give freely, right? You don't
expect the bum on the street to give you back your $5 later, do you? How about
when homeless shelters give them food, drink, and shelter? How about buying
stuff for poor families? In order for these to be good deeds, we cannot expect
repayment. Does this make it wrong, since it's not the giver's fault that the
guy is homeless and poor, or that the kids don't have a lot, is it? So (by your
logic) the giver shouldn't be giving? Are they being evil? No, of course not.
Every good deed requires a do-er, and a recipient. In the case of Atonement,
we're the recipients. God is willingly giving, just like we can willingly give
$5 or food to people, and do something good. Your logic with it being wrong for
the innocent to WILLINGLY suffer for the guilty, is just plain wrong.
I leave you in peace again, buddy. I'm anxious to read any responses you may
have to this, or to my other (what is it, eight now?) responses to subjects on
your site. I pray that you're beginning to realize that Jesus sets you free, and
you need not (and want not) to be "set free" from Jesus. God is with you, my
friend.
|