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Beth__8-1-05_
Lee_Foster_11-8-05
Lee_Foster_11-9-05__
Beth 8-1-05
Subject: webpage - note
Date: 8/1/2005 10:39:15 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
Fro
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Hi, (sorry I didn't catch your name)
I was just talking with one of my collegues about some of the horrible and
ridiculous messages in the Old Testament, and searched the web to remember what
passage it was when the authors talked about bashing babies' skulls on rocks,
and unless my search engine stinks, yours was the only website that referenced
it, so thank you, first of all, for that.
And I was reading your paper and assessment of those different passages in the
scripture, I felt your passion and strength and wisdom in a certain important
way, very strongly. And I honestly felt compelled to write you.
I'm not sure how recent it's been since your webpage, or how close your feelings
are now from then, but there's just a couple things I wanted to say to you, that
just seem really important. And I want to affirm you too, seriously.
When you read those passages, and they make you sick, and they make you think,
'What the F?!!!', that's God talking in you. Bare with me.
Your wisdom of the sickness and
awfulness and IGNORANCE in those passages you mentioned, are more Christian
views/values than you could ever realize. You understand, and with
passion, the importance of respecting people, no matter what views, not doing
hateful awful, dispicably horrible things (like most humans no matter no
religion or what religion have enough brains and heart to realize not to do)
like murdering infants, raping innocent women, etc. By the way, your assumption
with Deuteronomy is probably right, what else do the writers mean? I think
you're very intelligent, wise, passionate about seeking the 'Truth' and
hurt/ANGRY about the 'Bible' crap that Christians and people of Jewish faith
share (we both share the Torah -major parts of the OT).
Mark Smith here} I
prefer to call it common sense, at least common sense that hasn't been
warped or beaten to death by various dogmas or doctrines. I think by
instinct we feel sickened by such gratuitous violence. Some things by nature
just make (most of) us sick to our stomachs. Call it Natural Law or
whatever.
I do remember reading about how if you show
chimpanzees a severed head they'll go berserk- they really don't like seeing
such things. No body taught them that, that's just the way they feel
naturally.
Maybe I should tell you who I am. I work
with dying children having cancer, I'm a chaplain, and I do it, because of
Christ. Because Jesus and his life and his message, mean MUCH to me. NOW
that doesn't say I don't have questions and get angry and WONDER and ask why and
don't understand things...that happens all the time, but things like forgiving
people before you that just got done torturing you (like Jesus did), walking
outside of norms of your entire world and walking with women, lepers (like the
homeless to compare to today) (like Jesus did), talking about the 'church laws'
on Sundays as being crap (like Jesus did), and what's really important is loving
those in need, loving others, now THAT makes God sense. That is the loving God I
think that you're looking for. Jesus was that, and I also believe we only know
have the picture of Christ, that probably much of his work with women, with
diversity acceptance, is unknown. Remember the writers of the bible are people,
just like you and I, with our humanness and weakness and strength. We are finite
creatures, we can NEVER fully understand something infinite....we have a gap,
truly, between us and God. This is what I believe. And honestly, what MANY
Christian scholars, etc. believe, and teach.
I think you'd be surprised how many
Christians feel the exact same way you do about parts of the bible,
truly.
Mark Smith here}
Common sense usually wins out in most people. It is only the die hard
flaming Fundies that would let the donkey drown in the well because it was
the Sabbath (re: Jesus' parable). Most of us would have the common sense to
get the poor animal out. Just like most American Catholics love their
church, but have the common sense to still use birth control.
What else has confirmed my faith? I've been a hospice chaplain for years now,
and I walk with people dying, of all ages, and believe me when I tell you, that
is the most sacred ground one could ever walk on. I see people weekly, have
visits from their deceased loved ones, see angels, do phyically impossible
things at the end of death (like people bed bound unable to move for months all
of a sudden sporatically sit up and reach out to God/Jesus before death). It is
scary, out of this world, and absolutely pure, wonderful, holy, that's God. I'm
so blessed and lucky to have seen all that I have, I really am.
Now I just read a couple of your
responses from other people....and they seemed to defend why 'God' did those
things in the passages you cited in your paper. I think they're WRONG. I don't
believe God did any of those things at ALL. These people (writers of the
bible) were very ignorant and searching...when you compare Jesus' new
commandment to love others, not just those that look like you, talk like you, or
think like you, but LOVE ALL OTHERS, well that's just the EXACT opposite message
than killing thousands of people, murder, rape, religious superiority, etc.
You're right on, I'm telling you, you are more Christian in your values than you
might ever realize. What probably would be most helpful next for you, is to use
that hate in a different way...for example, really explore
Christianity/values/use of Scripture/Tradition, what does the Church say about
'believing the Bible'/understanding it as the 'Word of God'?
Mark Smith here}
That is where you and the Fundies would part ways. You have the common sense
to know that if there were a god, and if that god were good, he wouldn't be
ordering all the evil to be done in the Old Testament. Now were you a Fundy,
you'd have to be doing mental gyrations trying to explain away this and
that. Thank you for being better than that.
I am a true Catholic Christian, not agreeing with everything in the Catholic
church for sure (women ordination for one) BUT I ascripe perfectly with the
Catholic teaching on Scripture (aka the Bible). We don't believe all the words
on the page of the bible are from God's mouth, not at all. We beleive God can
only meet us with God's love/source of life where WE ARE. Therefore, if one is a
total ignoramous, with HUMAN greed, sin, prejudices, etc. (like we all have to
different degrees) what WE SAY OF GOD, is going to show through THROUGH these
things in us. Therefore, the CULTURE OF THE DAY, the WRITER'S INTENT in their
message, ETC. NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED. Scholars look at the gap of 100's of years
between Jesus living and his life being written down into compliations we know
today as the 'Bible'..the fact that the Old Test was written over a time span of
over 1000 years, 1000 years!!!..says a lot too...etc. I could talk to you a lot
more about different Christian ways to interpret the bible, but all I want to
say now, in case you're not interested is, you can be a loving perfectly healthy
Christian and NOT think the story of Noah's arch really happened, NOT think God
destroyed villiages and innocent people for fun or wrath, etc.
Like I say, I really appreciate your passion and your wisdom...you can too take
that hate to a next level...and find more peace within you too...you really can.
MANY bible scholars KNOW the crap that's in the bible that is humanly flawed and
sinful/wrong....but also view that God's INTENTION for us is to hear God better
and so God tried then to communicate love and God tries now to communicate love.
But when you look at God and suffering, good and evil, well, let me just say it
takes MUCH devotion, prayer, reading, studying, life experience to get to better
and better places with this. Let me tell you I'M STILL DOING THIS, and always
will until I die most likely. Faith isn't easy, but it's people like you who
carry so much passion, who have it inside you, to really make a positive
difference in this world.
Coming from someone who too cares a lot about this world and what's right, I
hope you take what I wrote sincerely, at least know it comes from an honest and
genunine place in my heart, and a sincerity to affirm your stuck spots, and
encourage you, that that's not the end all. There's more for you, and us. We
have other ways, and options, there's more scripture passages, there's much more
to learn too......you CAN be a believer in God and Christ with intelligence and
insight....I'm very open to talking with you more....or leading you to places to
help......truly.........
Peace to You.
Sincerely,
Beth
Mark Smith here}
Beth, thank you for writing. I really enjoyed reading your email. You are
thinking for yourself, judging for yourself, and that is how it should be. I
am happy to deconvert a Fundy into a non-Fundy, and you are already there.
Now, if you want to continue that line of thought... you may eventually
become what many others already have: an exChristian. Thinking is the road.
Lee Foster 11-8-05
Subject: objection to one item
Date: 11/8/2005 1:20:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
From:
Reply To:
To: JCnot4me@aol.com
Dear sir,
I am writing because of the addition of Kyle Lake's death to your front page. I
am student at Baylor University in Waco, TX, and I can say that many
hundreds of people were affected by the
death of this young pastor.
Mark Smith here} Why
should any Christian that knew him be "affected" by his death??? IF they
REALLY believed all the hype about heaven and such, then they SHOULD be
overwhelmed with joy at Kyle's "promotion" to a better position. The FACT
though, that Christians cry at funerals just as much as anyone else proves
Christians, deep down inside, really don't believe their own propoganda.
Deep down inside you know the truth, that this life is all there is, and you
cry at that realization.
It is an insult to his memory and his family more importantly that you treat
his death in such a light fashion. Yes, I am aware that to you he is nothing
more than a name in a newspaper, but to a good many people, he was a magnificent
individual.
Mark Smith here}
Dude, I am sorry that you and many others have to live in Waco, and I am
sorry that your friend Kyle died. However, to those of us NOT stuck living
in Waco (home of David Koresh AND George W. Bush), the circumstances of his
death just make such a public mockery of Christian claims of "God
watches over his own" that we can't help ourselves. If anyone needed yet
another reason not to believe in your fictional god, this was it. If
Biblegod can't even protect a Christian- a Christian who is a minister- a
Christian who is a minister who is in the process of baptizing someone into
Jesus- IF the deity you have chosen to grovel to can't even protect someone
like that at a time like that, how dare you expect the rest of the world to
take you or your theories seriously. Besides, the irony of it was just too
much. I even got more amusement from it that week than the other story about
the guy who got his ass superglued to the toilet seat at Home Depot.
I respectfully ask that you take down this part of your front page. I realize
that we do disagree ideologically and that you have a right to your beliefs, but
the part with Kyle Lake does not contribute significantly to your website, other
than your view of God which you could probably sustain with other examples that
are not in such poor taste. Also, the insinuations you make about Kyle Lake, no
matter how much they be in jest, are
exceedingly disrespectful. If you will not take down this part (as I
cannot force you), then I suggest that you correct the paragraph pertaining to
his death, as it is incorrect on what actually happened.
Respectfully yours,
Lee Foster
Mark Smith here}
Sorry about being disrespectful, but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't
humor in how he died. I bet if Kyle somehow came back from the dead, he'd be
laughing his head off about it too. You remember when Sonny Bono (of Sonny &
Cher fame) skied himself into a tree and died? Yes, his death was tragic-
for his immediate family. But for everyone else, it was very darn funny. And
knowing how Sonny Bono was, he'd be laughing about it too afterwards.
Lee Foster 11-9-05
"Mark Smith here} Why should any Christian that knew him be "affected" by
his death??? IF they REALLY believed all the hype about heaven and such, then
they SHOULD be overwhelmed with joy at Kyle's "promotion" to a better position."
Most of his friends do have a joy and peace that he is now in heaven, but the
sadness comes from the fact that Kyle is no longer with him.
"The FACT though, that Christians cry at funerals just as much as anyone else
proves Christians, deep down inside, really don't believe their own propoganda.
Deep down inside you know the truth, that this life is all there is, and you cry
at that realization."
For starters, I would suggest that you leave the psychoanalysis alone. A person
crying at a funeral proves nothing about their beliefs, whatever they may be.
Your objection is misplaced, and means nothing more than an atheist crying at a
funeral, when they should really realize that this was inevitable, and they too
will go the way of the worm someday, so why bother crying.
"Mark Smith here} Dude, I am sorry that you and many others have to live in
Waco"
Meh. I chose to go to school here. I can think of worse places to be, and better
ones. Only for a few years.
"However, to those of us NOT stuck living in Waco (home of David Koresh AND
George W. Bush), the circumstances of his death just make such a public mockery
of Christian claims of "God watches over his own" that we can't help
ourselves."
I honestly doubt that all of the people you claim view his death in the same way
as you do. Some yes, undoubtedly, but for most who happened to catch a t.v.
blurb or a newspaper clipping of it, it was probably more along the lines of
"how sad" etc. and they moved on with their day. Most people don't automatically
react with "HA! The Christian God couldn't even help His pastor!".
"If anyone needed yet another reason not to believe in your fictional god, this
was it."
Really? The death of one pastor in Waco, TX, is going to push those who were
sitting the fence to jump towards atheism? Even after Hurricane Katrina? Or the
war? What about the Tsunami, or 9/11 4 years earlier? Kyle's death was very sad,
but nowhere near the level of those disasters.
Mark Smith here}
You are right. There are so MANY reasons to believe that Biblegod doesn't
exist, but I thought the Pastor getting zapped was an especially good one.
"If Biblegod can't even protect a Christian- a Christian who is a minister- a
Christian who is a minister who is in the process of baptizing someone into
Jesus- IF the deity you have chosen to grovel to can't even protect someone like
that at a time like that, how dare you expect the rest of the world to take you
or your theories seriously."
You are basing your objection off an atheistic viewpoint, that this life is all
there is. If there were no afterlife, then you would have a valid objection, but
since within the Christian paradigm there is an afterlife, one that is to be
infinitely better and unending, why should God, who can see all ends, be
concerned about taking a Christian out of this life into the next? God knows
that this hurt the Lake family and their friends, but He also knows that they'll
have the strength to make it through this, that one day they'll be with Kyle
again and that they'll never be separated.
Mark Smith here}
Then if you really believe this- that death is no big deal, why are you all
upset with my reaction being disrespectful and such??? What's the dillio???
"Mark Smith here} Sorry about being disrespectful, but I'd be lying if I said
there wasn't humor in how he died. I bet if Kyle somehow came back from the
dead, he'd be laughing his head off about it too. You remember when Sonny Bono
(of Sonny & Cher fame) skied himself into a tree and died? Yes, his death was
tragic- for his immediate family. But for everyone else, it was very darn funny.
And knowing how Sonny Bono was, he'd be laughing about it too afterwards."
I honestly don't see the humor about someone dying. I do understand your point
about the dead person finding their end funny, but for us to laugh at them is
disrespectful. But, to each his own, I guess.
*****
Thanks for the response.
"What is there incorrect about his death in my story???"
He wasn't actually baptizing her yet, basically. He had stepped into the
baptistry and she was waiting at the edge. The odd thing about the death is that
he merely grabbed a boon mike to adjust it; it never touched the water. They're
trying to figure out what exactly went wrong.
As for the student about to be baptized, I'm not sure what her reaction was. I
know she received minor injuries because she was in contact with the water, but
other than that she was fine physically.
And as for whether or not she has decided to go through with it, I haven't
heard.
Lee
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